Stopping the Slide

CFIse said:
You need to try and separate who I work for and what I do for a living from my views and opinions on the state of the industry.

In fact frankly half the problem with the industry at the moment is that people aren't willing to deal with the realities of the industry but they'd far rather deal with some other reality that does't exist now and won't exist for the forseeable future.

I don't like that the Delta pilots rolled over, or that the NorthWest pilots rolled over, or that the Mesaba pilots will roll over (you read it here first) but I understand why they did and, given the state of the industry it was probably the best decision for them.

That's why I think the PSA pilots would have been better off taking the 900s. That's why I think if it had been put to a vote, regardless of what people say in the crew room or in public, the PSA pilots would have voted to take the 900s because in the end, in the privacy of your little voting world, self interest rules (see the Delta, NorthWest, Mesaba pilots above).

Let's look at this way - clearly there is an over-supply of pilots, anybody here who was selfish enough to go and get a pilots certificate and build the hours to qualify for an airline job is just adding to the over-supply and they shouldn't have done it, and it's wrong, and they're not supporting their fellow pilots. Now - see how stupid that sounds?
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CFIse,

You make good points. That being said, that is some yummy koolaid you are drinking and you should put down your copy of "Mesa Muscle". When you see what we are saying - that if pilots actually stick together instead of agree to undercut - we can all get more airplanes AND payraises. Isn't that what we all want?

"Reality of the Industry"? Oh you mean fuel prices. Explain how FedEx and UPS can post record profits but the pax carriers can not. Overcapacity you say? Interesting. Capacity has been getting cut quarter after quarter, airplanes are a RECORD HIGH levels of load factor, and yet airlines are still losing money?

The PSA pilots are putting their foot down here (their MEC speaks for them). If US Air wants bigger airplanes that's fine, just pay more. That's all they're asking. Here's an idea - why accept greater responsibility and work without an increase in compensation?

Airlines must find a way to increase revenue without taking from their employees pockets. If gas magically dropped to $0.25/gal airlines would just charge $40.00 roundtrip instead of $100.00. Thank god there are some pilots with backbones that can say "NO!" when a • deal is put on the table.
 
wheelsup said:
CFIse,

You make good points. That being said, that is some yummy koolaid you are drinking and you should put down your copy of "Mesa Muscle". When you see what we are saying - that if pilots actually stick together instead of agree to undercut - we can all get more airplanes AND payraises. Isn't that what we all want?

"Reality of the Industry"? Oh you mean fuel prices. Explain how FedEx and UPS can post record profits but the pax carriers can not. Overcapacity you say? Interesting. Capacity has been getting cut quarter after quarter, airplanes are a RECORD HIGH levels of load factor, and yet airlines are still losing money?

The PSA pilots are putting their foot down here (their MEC speaks for them). If US Air wants bigger airplanes that's fine, just pay more. That's all they're asking. Here's an idea - why accept greater responsibility and work without an increase in compensation?

Airlines must find a way to increase revenue without taking from their employees pockets. If gas magically dropped to $0.25/gal airlines would just charge $40.00 roundtrip instead of $100.00. Thank god there are some pilots with backbones that can say "NO!" when a • deal is put on the table.
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This paragraph should be read by every new hire at every airline during indoc training.
 
CFIse said:
You need to try and separate who I work for and what I do for a living from my views and opinions on the state of the industry. In fact frankly half the problem with the industry at the moment is that people aren't willing to deal with the realities of the industry but they'd far rather deal with some other reality that does't exist now and won't exist for the forseeable future.

I don't like that the Delta pilots rolled over, or that the NorthWest pilots rolled over, or that the Mesaba pilots will roll over (you read it here first) but I understand why they did and, given the state of the industry it was probably the best decision for them.

That's why I think the PSA pilots would have been better off taking the 900s. That's why I think if it had been put to a vote, regardless of what people say in the crew room or in public, the PSA pilots would have voted to take the 900s because in the end, in the privacy of your little voting world, self interest rules (see the Delta, NorthWest, Mesaba pilots above).

Let's look at this way - clearly there is an over-supply of pilots, anybody here who was selfish enough to go and get a pilots certificate and build the hours to qualify for an airline job is just adding to the over-supply and they shouldn't have done it, and it's wrong, and they're not supporting their fellow pilots. Now - see how stupid that sounds?
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Do you commute out of CLT? I'd love to get together with you and meet to discuss the 900 vote at PSA. We could even do it over the case of beer that I put on the line. It wouldn't have passed, but we can take a straw poll from as many PSA pilots as you would like. That would only be fair. Shoot, you can even come over and I'll provide the food on my new grill, I'm a grillin machin'. (say machine like scarface, it sounds better)

By the way Wheelsup and mrivc, drinks are on me the next time we meet. Wheels, if you have an overnight or long sit in CLT we need to hang out.
 
wheelsup said:
CFIse,
You make good points. That being said, that is some yummy koolaid you are drinking and you should put down your copy of "Mesa Muscle". When you see what we are saying - that if pilots actually stick together instead of agree to undercut - we can all get more airplanes AND payraises. Isn't that what we all want?
Click to expand...

Let us cast aside, for a moment, any semblance of reality and assume that all the little factions and fiefdoms of ALPA could get together and agree to stick together. What about the non-ALPA carriers and the non-union carriers? It's not going to happen. You're right, if the pilot community could unite what a powerful force that would be (RLA not withstanding). That's my point about reality - you're not going to get a unified pilot workforce so standing around saying "if only we could...." isn't very productive.

This whole "Delta Connection contractors got together and agreed something" is fascinating. I'd like to think it would be useful and productive, but I suspect it's a good excuse for some drinks and a round of golf on our ALPA dues. The contract carriers aren't in line with each other on their existing contracts - before they can hold the line they've got to get to a line to hold. Until then Delta will keep whipsawing the companies against each other and the companies will have to whipsaw the pilot groups because labor is a significant part of their costs. I'd like to believe they'll stand firm, I don't think they will.

"Reality of the Industry"? Oh you mean fuel prices. Explain how FedEx and UPS can post record profits but the pax carriers can not. Overcapacity you say? Interesting. Capacity has been getting cut quarter after quarter, airplanes are a RECORD HIGH levels of load factor, and yet airlines are still losing money?
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Fuel cost is a total red herring - when did US Air go into bankruptcy the first time, United, US Air the second time. It wasn't fuel costs that pushed them there, it was their overall cost structure at all levels, aircraft cost, labor cost. The public spoke and said they wanted ticket prices the like of which SouthWest was providing. If you want to provide those ticket prices you have to have a similar cost structure and bankruptcy was the only way to get there. That's why Delta went, that's why NorthWest went. Kudos to American for not going down that path, but if you think it's been all peaches and cream at American, well.....

Cargo is a different business - in the cargo business the carriers have pricing power and, to some extent, they don't care what fuel prices are, they just pass them on.

The PSA pilots are putting their foot down here (their MEC speaks for them). If US Air wants bigger airplanes that's fine, just pay more. That's all they're asking. Here's an idea - why accept greater responsibility and work without an increase in compensation?
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On an unrealistic "looking at the world the way I'd like it to be" point of view all power to the PSA pilots for putting their collective feet down. In the realistic world we live in all they're doing is shooting themselves out of existence (in my opinion). If they don't take the 900s US Air will find somebody who will and they'll find they don't need PSA anymore and start transitioning that work away. Bottom line the "wholly owned" regional carriers don't make sense anyway in general, so all they need is an excuse.

Airlines must find a way to increase revenue without taking from their employees pockets. If gas magically dropped to $0.25/gal airlines would just charge $40.00 roundtrip instead of $100.00. Thank god there are some pilots with backbones that can say "NO!" when a • deal is put on the table.
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Well that's called competition. Airlines would charge $40.00 a round trip because somebody else was charging that and if they charge $100.00 a round trip nobody will fly them. It would be nice if airlines could find a way to produce a profit by increasing revenue not by lowering costs, but in the reality we live in for now, that ain't happening. Passenger carriers don't have ANY pricing power (or at least they have as much pricing power as SouthWest lets them have).

It's still basic supply and demand, and it's very difficult to adjust the supply of aircraft seats, so you have to manipulate the demand and these days the only way to drive demand is price. Service isn't getting it, and safety was alway a dual-edged sword nobody wants to play with.

So it's a bad deal, the trouble is if you don't take that bad deal somebody else will in the current environment. If you don't have the flying you can't get a better deal down the line, perhaps when you have more leverage. That's why I think PSA should take the flying as offered. The downside is they may never have any leverage and they may never improve the deal. But if they don't take the flying now it won't matter if they get any leverage in the future, the deal is gone.
 
CFIse said:
I don't like that the Delta pilots rolled over, or that the NorthWest pilots rolled over, or that the Mesaba pilots will roll over (you read it here first) but I understand why they did and, given the state of the industry it was probably the best decision for them.
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Not at all.

Because when pilot groups sign dumbass TA's, the entire industry suffers because it's a 'cost competitive' business.

If NWA decided to fly their DC-9's for free. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that in the next three years, everyone will be flying DC-9's for free.

Altruistic principles like "take one for the team/it's the best decision for us/get the planes on campus at any cost" is what has killed this profession and until we stand up for ourselves, it's going to continue.

Do you think it's "interesting" now? Just imagine ten years from now if professional pilots don't get their crap together and stop the slide.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Because when pilot groups sign dumbass TA's, the entire industry suffers because it's a 'cost competitive' business.
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Great idea, I love it. Sadly however it's not working. Got any other ideas?

The Delta pilots rolled over because if they didn't they were going to get worse condition imposed on them. The NorthWest pilots rolled over because if they didn't they were going to get worse conditions imposed on them. American pilots have been taking it forever because if they didn't the company was going BK and they could see where that was going. The PSA pilots will take the jets because if they don't they'll all be out of work. The Mesaba pilots won't strike because if they do they won't have any jobs either. These groups are all giving ground in their own self-interest.

We can't have unity of one. If Delta, NorthWest, American, US Air, United can't hold it together it's somewhat simplistic to expect regional pilots who are making considerably less than mainline with just as many mouths to feed to lead the way.

Just going around pretending it'll all get better when somebody (not me mind you because it would be painful for me, but somebody) stands up and says no is stupid. You might just as well say that we can solve the regional pilot pay problem by having gold coins fall from the sky. You're absolutely right, it will solve the problem. So that's that then, no need to look any further. Let me know when it happens, I'll bring a bucket.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
"Just get the planes on property...and worry about pay later." Huh CFIse???
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If you're a PSA pilot with a mortgage and a car and heaven forbid a grocery bill to pay it sure is. Because the alternative is a slow slide into having no job at all.

If the PSA pilots take a stand "for the industry" then God bless 'em. I don't think they will, and if they do I don't think it'll make one iota of difference to the industry. But as we've discussed, that's just my opinion, we'll see.
 
Okay, so Mesaba won't strike b/c they'll be out of a job? How many Mesaba pilots do you know? All the ones I've talked to are ready to burn the place down. I know I wouldn't want to be away from my family 200-300 hours a month, deal with wx, listen to pax complain about the flight not being on-time and having to deal with commuting all for $10,000 a year. Screw that. But hey, they might as well do it b/c someone else will, right? Heck, why not have Mesa take a cut. Then you could get more flying!

I have nothing against Mesa pilots, just the work rules they'e currently under. If you keep up your current philosophy, you'll probably have a nice surprise in your flight bag come contract negotiations.
 
You take a look at the new UPS contract? You see what NetJets has going on now? There are a few freight and frac pilot groups that can't wait for their contract to come up so they can put pattern bargaining to use. Do some homework before you start the whole chicken little sky is falling routine.
 
Thanks for the lecture about the 'how' and 'why' over a company I work for and the rationale behind how the vote came out.

13 years of professional aviation, but now it's crystal clear! ;)
 
kellwolf said:
Okay, so Mesaba won't strike b/c they'll be out of a job? How many Mesaba pilots do you know? All the ones I've talked to are ready to burn the place down.
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We'll see - I have talked to a few Mesaba pilots, and like all pilots they're all for burning the place down (see Delta, NorthWest etc., etc.) - but we'll see what actually happens when push comes to shove.

I have nothing against Mesa pilots, just the work rules they'e currently under. If you keep up your current philosophy, you'll probably have a nice surprise in your flight bag come contract negotiations.
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Oh we'll have a better contract at Mesa - because lets face it, how could it be worse. But WHEN we'll have that contract is an interesting question. My guess, not for 3-4 years. I mean Mesa (the company) has a sweet deal going on, they're not going to want to give that up for a while, so they'll stall the negotiations as long as they can.

The only reason we get a new contract sooner is if the company wants something:
- not getting new contracts with mainlines because of uncertainty about a strike.
- wanting rates to fly larger equipment.
- other things I'm too dumb to think of.

Those are all things that, in theory, give ALPA bargaining power in closing a new contract. Will it be industry leading, unlikely, but industry average, let's hope so.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Thanks for the lecture about the 'how' and 'why' over a company I work for and the rationale behind how the vote came out.

13 years of professional aviation, but now it's crystal clear! ;)
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So there wasn't a lot of talk from Delta pilots about how there was no way they'd accept the TA, Delta pilots didn't clean out their lockers and take there stuff home in preparation for a strike and the Delta pilots didn't ratify the TA anyway and all just go back to work.

My mistake, must have been another Delta I was thinking of.
 
CFIse said:
Oh we'll have a better contract at Mesa - because lets face it, how could it be worse. But WHEN we'll have that contract is an interesting question. My guess, not for 3-4 years. I mean Mesa (the company) has a sweet deal going on, they're not going to want to give that up for a while, so they'll stall the negotiations as long as they can.
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Heh, if Mesaba rolls over like you think they will, expect JO to come out with a "We need to cut costs in order to compete with other regionals" speech. Then it CAN be worse. $10K a year for first year guys after they pay the insurance premiums is a LOT worse than what you've got over there now. That's what the Mesaba pilots are looking down the barrel at. With stacks of resumes and starry eyed guys outta MAPD, don't think Mesa management will think twice about taking this line. Might even toss out a bone saying that Mesa might even lose flying to other regionals.

You're not immune to going lower. Like you said earlier, we don't know where the bottom is. Your turn will come to take a stand, and from your comments, it doesn't sound like you will. After all, the next guy is gonna fold, might as well secure the flying, right?
 
CFIse said:
We'll see - I have talked to a few Mesaba pilots, and like all pilots they're all for burning the place down (see Delta, NorthWest etc., etc.) - but we'll see what actually happens when push comes to shove.



Oh we'll have a better contract at Mesa - because lets face it, how could it be worse. But WHEN we'll have that contract is an interesting question. My guess, not for 3-4 years. I mean Mesa (the company) has a sweet deal going on, they're not going to want to give that up for a while, so they'll stall the negotiations as long as they can.

The only reason we get a new contract sooner is if the company wants something:
- not getting new contracts with mainlines because of uncertainty about a strike.
- wanting rates to fly larger equipment.
- other things I'm too dumb to think of.

Those are all things that, in theory, give ALPA bargaining power in closing a new contract. Will it be industry leading, unlikely, but industry average, let's hope so.
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Haha..y'all are going to get Anal raped over there at Mesa if too many of you think like this. Everbody else caves, but Mesa is going to improve their contract? HAHAHAHA.

JO will have a field day with people like you, and then let's see how you feel. Keep the slide going, you're doing a great job so far. It can't get any worse...HAHAHAHA

For the Mesa people that actually have a clue (the one or two of you anyways :) ), I truly hope that you can improve the contract, but if you have too many with the above attitude, I feel even worse for you than I did before.

TX
 
CFIse,

Reading your posts, you seem like a smart guy. You write well ( alot better than me) and make valid points. So I respect you and your opinions, but they rub me the wrong way.

Mesaba, will they stirke? I dont know. I would like to think yes, if management doesnt stop overreaching with their unrealistic demands. Morale there is horrible. And if the pilots dont strike, I think the FAs will. Or maybe even the MX. Since the court threw out all of their contracts. But its easy for me to say, yes they will strike when I am not in their shoes. Would I strike if my company asked me to, heck yeah. I got nothing to lose. But then again, they donthave much to lose either. All the avros are going away, everyone is downgrading into the saab, which is lower pay. and on top of that, they want a 19 percent paycut. Could you do it? I hope they do strike, so that XJ and NW takes them seriously. Good luck to all the mesaba guys.

If PSA takes the -900 flying. it might hurt you guys in negotiations. I dont know waht your -900 payrates are, and I dont know what PSA management is asking for. But if its lower than yourcurrent payrate, dont you think JO will be going after you guys for concessions when your next contract comes around? Who do you think the arbitrator will side with when your management says the industry pay (ie PSA) is paid less than you guys? How do youthink Comair was able to get concessions from their pilot group? its cuz the rest of the industry was getting paid less than them. Like i asked you before, and I think BobDduck mentioned it again. Go look up what pattern bargaining is.

and how are you gonna talk about Mesa getting an improved contract with the attitude you have now?
 
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