killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Me too, although I'll cheerfully admit that your airplane is probably a hell of a lot harder to fly than mine.
Here's how you fly the 220:
"Alexa, take us to Palm Beach."
Southwest tries to redecorate LGA tower
- Thread starter NovemberEcho
- Start date
Me too, although I'll cheerfully admit that your airplane is probably a hell of a lot harder to fly than mine.
Here's how you fly the 220:
"Alexa, take us to Palm Beach."
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Eh, they taught us in stages - first with everything on, then with AT but no AP, and then everything - including FDs - off. I've certainly flown with everything off - had to for OE. Unfortunately, I have had very little opportunity to put things into practice - don't fly much on reserve so when I do I really try to maximize the learning opportunity for the given conditions, and lately there hasn't been a lot of margin for error so I've been limited in what I could experiment/practice with. That visual into MSY this past weekend, for example, was the first visual I've been assigned in a couple months.
At <100 hours on the airplane, while I'm confident in my basic skills, I am also smart enough to know that I don't know everything, and I'm not about to play push-the-personal-envelope under suboptimal conditions. I'm not in a rush - the chances will come, and I'm looking forward to looking back to this point to see what I've learned over the next few hundred hours. This is the fun part.Someday I'll be as good as you.
Staged learning makes perfect sense. I’m moreso relating what you’ll eventually be working towards as your experience, knowledge and comfort all increase at a safe and manageable rate. From the sounds of it, you are progressing nicely in that realm.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Agreed.
I’d add that after X amount of experience flying a certain type of airframe on a certain type of mission, things get easier over time even if you spend some time out of the cockpit. After you get used to jet stuff doing 121 stuff long breaks won’t be such a big deal.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I take that as don't put flaps in, then take flaps out. I also take it as don't go from flaps up to flaps 10 because you need to dump a bunch of speed. Rolling the speed back and configuring as you slow, isn't using the flaps as a "speed brake" anymore or less at 230 than it is at 250. The logic of that sentence doesn't change because of the arbitrary speed you picked.
I will also say that I think the 737 side likes to fly slower, cleaner and while it is totally fine to do so, I generally see flying with reduced margins. Adding flaps as you slow, increases your stall margin.
I use the speed brakes as speed brakes. I use the flaps to configure and increase lift and stall margins as I slow. Throwing flaps 1 or 5 out and then hitting level change is not really something I see a lot of people doing. Again, you would use speed brakes for that which is really the intent of speed brakes, and the essence of that statement in the FH. I would be happy to argue my position to the highest-time LCA or APD at the company and I am confident they couldn't change my mind otherwise. I think it is absolutely silly that if you get slowed from 280kts to 210, to try and do it clean because "feelings" and I think it is almost even sillier to throw gear out and then either leave it down or bring it back up.
inigo88
Composite-lover
I swear you can learn everything on YouTube and it’s freakin awesome. Here’s a guy walking us through a 5-part series on the 737 flap system and opening inspection panels and getting his hands on everything as he goes. But I thought this video was the most relevant:
My take is that between speed brakes, landing gear and flaps, there is probably some truth to the assertion that the flap system is the least robust of the three - reason being that downstream of the PDU in the gear bay you have this Rube Goldberg contraption of torque tubes, gear boxes, worm gears and tracks that can bind up or jam if subject to excessive aerodynamic loading.
BUT - I would also venture to say that since Boeing has had 60 years to gather data on the 737, their flap extension speeds are probably pretty well tested at this point and they haven’t reduced the operating limitations. So in absence of an actual feedback loop from your airline’s maintenance department saying “here’s how many hours we are supposed to get out of these systems according to the manufacturer and here’s what YOU knuckleheads are making us change them at instead” then I would continue extending them any time below the published operating limitation and not give it a second thought.
The argument “You can extend them at X but I extend them at Y instead to reduce wear and tear” doesn’t really make sense, because airplanes are complex systems of thousands of interdependent components that are all wearing at different rate, and they all must be tracked by mx. Every time you raise and lower the gear you’re creating wear and tear, and every time you take off and land you’re wearing and tearing the airframe (another cycle towards its eventual fate in the desert).
So be mindful of the operating limitations, be especially careful with the operating limitations on the systems that are probably the weak links, but then still use those systems as they were intended to be used.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I hope that by the time we’re flying 737s, all of us understand that yeeting the flaps out riiiiight at VFE especially when there isn’t an established deceleration trend and or there is turbulence, isn’t a good idea. I also think that waiting until the next flap maneuver speed +10 as is the preference per the training department, is overly conservative. I will have to do some reading on my transcon tomorrow about what exactly the FH says about that and what the wording is. Always better to fly the way the people who write the checks say to, even if it may be a bit silly.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
On the Airbus, there is an FMS calculated declaration profile that will take you from 250 knots to your VAPP (ref speed basically) at 1000 feet if you configure at the next flap speed plus 10, and drop the gear after the second notch of flaps. That's of course dependent on ATC not slowing you, the arrival connecting to the approach (so no vectors) and the correct winds being loaded into the FMS. But when it does work, it's pretty nice.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Don’t know what to tell you. Get more comfortable on the 737, I guess. I’ve never had to drop flaps above 240 knots. Unnecessary.
And your definitions are correct. But I’d also argue extending flaps to 1, at near 250, while slowing to 210, you’re defacto using it as a speed brake.
We’re having a kind of a change of operational philosophy behind turbulence penetration. Most of my career, it’s been “pull it back to turbulence penetration speed!” on the bus to more of a “put it somewhere in the middle of Vls and the barber pole”. It’s been talked about for the past two years in Standards but I honestly haven’t checked to see if it’s been codified yet.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Also, you wouldn’t go from flaps up to flaps 10. Depending on the plane, flaps 10 max speed is 200-210 knots. So you’d have to be slower than that not to redline it. I don’t see how that’s possible. Unless you’re empty, you can’t even go below 200 without having flaps 1 out.
Flaps 10 is a good one if you’re at flaps 5, 180, then capture glideslope and come down.
Flaps 10 is a good one if you’re at flaps 5, 180, then capture glideslope and come down.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I mean, it is literally right there. But cause I’m a cool cucumber, I’ll let you extend at 240-245knots. I’ve flown with FOs who have told me their CAs said no, slow down more.
But just know, it’s bad form. If up speed is ~ 210, there’s really no reason you need to extend flaps 1 at 240+
Slow to 220-225 (10-15 kts within UP speed).
If you find yourself getting too close or high, get the gear down at 250, and speed brakes out. Then approaching UP speed plus 10-15ish, get flaps 1. Having gear and speed brakes will get you to slow real nice and good.
I can only assume that Airbus guys coming new to the Boeing (including the ones above) haven’t fully appreciated the fact that on a 737, the gear is used more frequently for slowing/energy management than on the Airbus.
But just know, it’s bad form. If up speed is ~ 210, there’s really no reason you need to extend flaps 1 at 240+
Slow to 220-225 (10-15 kts within UP speed).
If you find yourself getting too close or high, get the gear down at 250, and speed brakes out. Then approaching UP speed plus 10-15ish, get flaps 1. Having gear and speed brakes will get you to slow real nice and good.
I can only assume that Airbus guys coming new to the Boeing (including the ones above) haven’t fully appreciated the fact that on a 737, the gear is used more frequently for slowing/energy management than on the Airbus.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
///AMG
Well-Known Member
210 on initial vectors, 190 on base, and 170 to FAF is basically SOP at SEA, so you'll see this again, over and over again. I'll absolutely use the boards to slow quickly. They add almost nothing to rate of descent (hence why I get the flaps out to increase ROD in the terminal area), but they are pretty good at slowing you quickly, when level (or even a shallow descent). Other trick I'll use, if they want me to slow down and go down, is initially hit V/S to -300 or so, boards out, and then back to level change once I'm close (if appropriate) and boards back in. When they call for 190, I'm going to F5 generally speaking, owing back to the stall margin discussion. You can ride that all the way down to the 170 assignment, though you'll probably need gear at G/S intercept to maintain it in a heavy jet, and/or if there is a tailwind aloft. I don't use F10 a lot, but it would be useful in this scenario on final if they dumped you off high on a visual or something. As soon as I hit FAF, I'm slowing and calling for the rest of the landing flaps. Just my technique, and I'm not much more experienced than you are in this thing, so take it for what it is....
ahhhhh so that’s why we gotta slow down
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Don’t know what to tell you. Get more comfortable on the 737, I guess. I’ve never had to drop flaps above 240 knots. Unnecessary.
And your definitions are correct. But I’d also argue extending flaps to 1, at near 250, while slowing to 210, you’re defacto using it as a speed brake.
I am comfortable on the 737, thanks.
You argue it any way you like, but the unstable approach numbers don't lie.
So you never extend flaps as you are slowing?
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
It is cool you flew wth somebody that let you use it. Flaps 2 is fine, although if I need to slow more than flaps 1 I just use 5.
