Southwest tries to redecorate LGA tower

[roundout]

As long as we’re discussing Captains likes and dislikes… whats up with FOs plowing into moderate turbulence at cruising speed? We get paid by the minute. Slow down to turbulence penetration speed. These things are 20+ years old and built by the lowest bidder. I’d rather not test their structural integrity.

tHaT’s oNlY fOr sEvErE tUrBuLeNce11

 

[T/O w/FSII]

tHaT’s oNlY fOr sEvErE tUrBuLeNce11

Well, you are right. It is.

This thread has shown me how thankful I am I didn’t go to work for Alaska. Jesus Christ.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

As long as we’re discussing Captains likes and dislikes… whats up with FOs plowing into moderate turbulence at cruising speed? We get paid by the minute. Slow down to turbulence penetration speed. These things are 20+ years old and built by the lowest bidder. I’d rather not test their structural integrity.

I have a different philosophy, but a different plane too. On the 747-400 the range for turbulence penetration is 290-310/0.82-0.85. I used to fly towards the bottom of the range for the reasons you suggested, but after we started doing our extended envelope training and saw how much harder it is to get airspeed back at altitude, I tend to fly a little faster in that range. I’m a lot less worried about structural damage than I am about a low speed event and/or someone overreacting.

Related, I was flying with someone who had come off the 737 and he asked me if the procedure for a momentary overspeed on the 747 is the same where you gently pull the speed brakes out a little and then gently stow them once you’re out of the red ants. I told him I didn’t think so, but we looked it up in the flight crew training manual and sure enough…

Kind of makes sense vs jerking the thrust levers around and then needing to wait for them to spool up once the airspeed starts going the other way.

 

[arkflyr]

At our shop they’re on a “flaps are not a drag device” kick right now.

So I spent all of January with a check airman, I was hoping for a bunch of RT pull and scored some but unfortunately not the whole month though I still had a great time.

The flaps subject came up as it is a peeve of his, regarding the whole flaps 5,15, 30-40 thing. The reason they are on this kick now makes a lot of sense as we had been having a bunch of flap overspeeds. And a lot of them have been from selecting flaps right near their limit and accidentally overshooting the intended setting. 15 instead of 10 for instance. That’s why they don’t want us using them to slow right at their limit.

Now there is nothing that prevents us from using any setting we want as long we don’t exceed any limitations and there isn’t anything wrong for instance using flaps 2 when slowed to the 2 bug.

It was a great month, learned a lot of the why we do things this way stuff, and some things that are still a mystery.

 

[Roger Roger]

Heh. Just for @MikeD I used flaps 2 today.

 

[Roger Roger]

Well, you are right. It is.

This thread has shown me how thankful I am I didn’t go to work for Alaska. Jesus Christ.

Meh. I don’t have much to compare it to but a lot of this is just sport bitching. Life on the line has been pretty chill thus far.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’m sure the AS guy(s) above are joking, but flaps 2 are prohibited in normal ops, unless following an abnormal checklist.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Any chance that your FH (whatever that is) is specific to your shop?

If your “FH” says should be up + 10, I agree that should occur and you or the FO would have a written reference to back up that speed and setting. An arbitrary 230 is arbitrary.

Without written guidance, “poor form” is 100% your opinion backed up by nothing but your own little thoughts. Without written guidance other than flaps 1 limit at 250, 248 is absolutely fine. It may not mean “things are that bad.” It could mean the PF made a choice within the limits of the book.

A 737 book I’m familiar with gives no guidance for “preferred” flap speeds as opposed to placarded speeds. It does however allow the use of Flaps 2 by referencing the PFD flaps 2 maneuvering speed indication.

Do you see what I’m getting at?

IMO, it’s bad form because a better option is there. It nearly says increased wear and tear on the TE flaps. Gear down in the 737 doesn’t wear and tear the plane at 248 kts. So…. Why not?

CRJ, A320 best as I recall max flap 1 was 230 kts. Flew your whole career with no flaps before 230. Now in the 737 all of a sudden, you can’t fly without throwing flaps out at 1?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Can you tell me what page you found that on, because I can't find it.

The Flap section of the FH in normal ops basically says that Boeing logic for descents is speed brakes, then gear, then if you need to slow down it is flaps. Under approaches it talks about not using the flaps as speed brakes which I don't even know what that means...

Under flap extension schedule it really only says that flaps should be extended before going below the next flap extension schedule.

I do not see in the FH where it says what you said. I am sure it is buried in there but I don't see it. Regardless if it says it in the FH or not, the word "should" removes it from a limitation and in my mind, I will do it if I can but I won't lose a second of sleep calling for flaps 1 at 249kts and decelerating.

You’re on the correct page. “The example” section for flaps 1. You’re also correct, it is “should be made” where you are looking just one paragraph above the example.


And I would argue, it falls under the “using flaps as speed brakes is not authorized” wording on that same page.

Essentially by putting flaps out at 248 knots, you ARE using flaps as a form of speed brake.

But come on, wasn’t A320 family flaps 1 max 230 knots? So you flew years with no ability to throw flaps faster than 230 and now can’t fly a 737 without having to use flaps above 240 kts? Sorry sir but especially coming off an Airbus, I don’t see the point of flaps above 240. *NOT* that I stop a FO. But it is poor form. If you feel that you are that close in, can’t make it, without flaps 1 above 240, you probably needed gear down about 3 miles ago. FH says don’t use flaps as a speed brake. Gear down = your friend.



And to your point, there was a whole lot more on this flap extension and speed brake usage in the Stan Notes (not controlling), but that entire section was taken out.

Now? The problem is guys are extending too close to max Vfe, and getting over speeds on flaps. Keep that up, and it WILL become a hard limit.

I’ve only been on the airplane for 3.5 years, and there’s been 0 times I’ve asked for flaps 1 above 240 knots.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I dont know how the canadian cousin works, but in the French Bus, it is very significant to not be flying with the FDs wonky and AP off. This can lead to a Asiana SFO type situation (although protections would kick in first). It has been an emphasis item for years now but here's a scenario for you...
Smallish airport, clear day, you're downwind, maybe a little high so youre in OPEN DES an autothrust idle setting with AP on...get cleared for the visual, and (red flag again) you click autopilot off immeditely and transition to outside references and focusing outside, looking good youre getting configured, now starting to resume a normal rate of descent because youre getting close to a 3/1 and the speed keeps decaying and decaying well beyond the commanded speed on the PFD until you run into a protection and go on a magic carpet ride.... Turning FDs off (or selecting some other mode like FPA) forces the bus into a "speed" mode and not idle thrust.

The Airbus wonkiness can happen because the Airbus can be flown with AP off and AT on. Now you better fly the FDs or you’re gonna screw yourself.

At our shop, when AP comes off, so does AT. So lesser chance of an automation screwup when you control both.

The only time we handfly with AT on is during takeoff and climb out. Or on a go around, you have the ability to throw AT on in the go around at 500 ft AGL.


But other than that, when AP comes off, so does AT on the 737 at our shop.

 

[alaskadrifter]

We have talked about this before but this needs to be encouraged in training. Things like knowing you can go flaps 10 with speed brakes out and it is completely fine, and authorized. Slowing as needed to configure but having the full range of the speed band for flaps to slow if needed. Speeding up in a descent to increase the rate of descent to then slow and configure so you are not continually high and fast etc. This needs to start in initial training and it needs to be encouraged. If the culture was to "do that pilot ish" it would encourage more pilots to learn on the line but it needs to start in initial. Do the weird things. Do flaps 40 to keep up on it, do a two engine flaps 15 landing when you can safely. Click all the stuff off and hand fly from 10k to the ground, play with configuring in different ways to learn how the airplane slows or doesn't. I get most places we are getting slowed and vectored but I wish everyone felt empowered to play with it when given free rein.

Speeding up on descent to get down faster was drilled into my head on OE and early on after that. Also the ANC pilot group likes to hand fly, like a lot, so I’ve been trying to hand fly/raw data visual approaches occasionally but it most places down south don’t lend them themselves to that often. I’m still working on energy management and figuring out good gateways/checkpoints for where to be configured or slowed (170orwhatever to FINKA doesn’t really help).

Unfortunately that is one of if not the biggest issue in the training department. Again as an FNG, especially one new to 121, it really only takes getting snapped at once for doing something to create an aversion to it. And of course the least consistent group is the bunch of randos that teach PTs, which as a new hire is also the group that gives you the most primacy.

Getting instructors in PT sessions who had never actually flown was not very helpful. Also I really didn’t like having a new sim instructor every. Single. Sim. A little bit of consistency would have been wonderful.

 

[Inverted]

You’re on the correct page. “The example” section for flaps 1. You’re also correct, it is “should be made” where you are looking just one paragraph above the example.


And I would argue, it falls under the “using flaps as speed brakes is not authorized” wording on that same page.

Essentially by putting flaps out at 248 knots, you ARE using flaps as a form of speed brake.

But come on, wasn’t A320 family flaps 1 max 230 knots? So you flew years with no ability to throw flaps faster than 230 and now can’t fly a 737 without having to use flaps above 240 kts? Sorry sir but especially coming off an Airbus, I don’t see the point of flaps above 240. *NOT* that I stop a FO. But it is poor form. If you feel that you are that close in, can’t make it, without flaps 1 above 240, you probably needed gear down about 3 miles ago. FH says don’t use flaps as a speed brake. Gear down = your friend.



And to your point, there was a whole lot more on this flap extension and speed brake usage in the Stan Notes (not controlling), but that entire section was taken out.

Now? The problem is guys are extending too close to max Vfe, and getting over speeds on flaps. Keep that up, and it WILL become a hard limit.

I’ve only been on the airplane for 3.5 years, and there’s been 0 times I’ve asked for flaps 1 above 240 knots.

Well, spoiler alert (no pun intended), flaps are drag devices. Whether you are literally using them for drag or changing the cord line and AOA which is inducing drag, they are drag devices. I get not throwing flaps 10 out as the first selection of flaps to really slow the airlplane up like speed brakes would but if you are doing 280kts, you need to slow to 210, throwing speed brakes out at 280 and as you go below 250, going flaps 1, then 5, then maybe 10 as needed as you slow, is absolutely fine and compliant and 100% inline with slowing and configuring transport category airplanes.

The Airbus much easier to slow down, and even then, 190 flaps 2 is where you need to be to go down and slow down.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well, spoiler alert (no pun intended), flaps are drag devices. Whether you are literally using them for drag or changing the cord line and AOA which is inducing drag, they are drag devices. I get not throwing flaps 10 out as the first selection of flaps to really slow the airlplane up like speed brakes would but if you are doing 280kts, you need to slow to 210, throwing speed brakes out at 280 and as you go below 250, going flaps 1, then 5, then maybe 10 as needed as you slow, is absolutely fine and compliant and 100% inline with slowing and configuring transport category airplanes.

The Airbus much easier to slow down, and even then, 190 flaps 2 is where you need to be to go down and slow down.

We aren’t arguing drag device or not. But above 240 kts, you ARE using flaps as a speed brake. And that is not authorized, straight from the FH.

In your example? 280 knots:

Use speed brakes to 250 knots.
Gear down.
Leave speed brakes out.
Get towards up speed plus 10-15 kts and get flaps 1, then 5, and stow speed brake handle.


I promise, this works better and with less wear/tear for the plane, TE flaps. Why the aversion to the gear at 240kts?

 

[Inverted]

We aren’t arguing drag device or not. But above 240 kts, you ARE using flaps as a speed brake. And that is not authorized, straight from the FH.

In your example? 280 knots:

Use speed brakes to 250 knots.
Gear down.
Leave speed brakes out.
Get towards up speed plus 10-15 kts and get flaps 1, then 5, and stow speed brake handle.


I promise, this works better and with less wear/tear for the plane, TE flaps. Why the aversion to the gear at 240kts?

You are using flaps as a speed brake no matter what speed you are, if you are clean.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Do you then retract the gear if you’ll be on an extended level segment or vectors?

 

[MikeD]

Ahh, yeah, interesting - I can definitely see how that could be a problem in the right (or wrong) conditions.

For landing, at least for me, you’re either flying the plane, or the AP/AT is. Unless something requires you to keep the AT on while handflying, I’ll generally have them all off. Because if you’re handflying and having the AT engaged, it’s going to drop out of your crosscheck.

The needles being left on while on a visual:
They’re better to be off, so as not to garbage up the FD with erroneous needles. However….on a visual, what would you be doing looking at the FD horizon anyway? All you’d be cross checking is speed and you can feel the descent rate or see a visual glidepath. But at end of the day, a visual is a contact maneuver….your horizon is outside, not inside. Your crosscheck inside is merely things such as speed.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Speeding up on descent to get down faster was drilled into my head on OE and early on after that. Also the ANC pilot group likes to hand fly, like a lot, so I’ve been trying to hand fly/raw data visual approaches occasionally but it most places down south don’t lend them themselves to that often. I’m still working on energy management and figuring out good gateways/checkpoints for where to be configured or slowed (170orwhatever to FINKA doesn’t really help).

Getting instructors in PT sessions who had never actually flown was not very helpful. Also I really didn’t like having a new sim instructor every. Single. Sim. A little bit of consistency would have been wonderful.

Same in the 320 or 737:

The magic number is 2000AGL be at second notch of flaps and 180kts. You’ll be golden each time. Airbus flaps 2, 180 and 737 flaps 5 and 180.
(As long as you are on the appropriate approach path).



Coming into LAS 1L , I can’t count the number of times FOs will see 1700 on RA because of the hill and be like “gear???” Nope, we got time. Vegas 2200ft elevation. Mentally, I can be flaps 5 and 180kts til about 4,200 ft. Now gear down, flaps 15, then on schedule flaps 25, 30. By 1000ft (3,200) fully stable.


You can always tell the guys who aren’t doing the full mental math. “Hey, you’re high.” Because they looked at the green banana bar leveling after the fox, but the VSD shows us hitting the fix on time. The banana bar just hasn’t caught up. Plus, we got 2,000 ft to lose and we’re 8.5 miles , we should be okay.

 

[MikeD]

Yea we do. I feel like every 737 non MAX single engine taxies like garbage compared to every Airbus. I hate the breakaway thrust required in the 800/900 single engine...

The -200 taxied fine single engine, however it takes a good amount of initial power to get it moving. Once it’s moving, it’s fine. But, there’s no benefit to taxiing single engine in it anyway.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Do you then retract the gear if you’ll be on an extended level segment or vectors?

I don’t. But you can. Our 10-7 pages for JFK even mentioning you use the gear for expedited descent, don’t forget the 230 retraction speed when you put it back up (eg, don’t be 250 at extend and also 250 at retract).

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You are using flaps as a speed brake no matter what speed you are, if you are clean.

At their slower appropriate speeds, more like lift devices and then drag devices.

With 10 knots, you gotta get flaps out or you are not gonna slow and Vmin maneuver bar is there.


What else is your interpretation of “the use of flaps as speed brakes is not authorized.”

I take that as don’t use flaps at a higher speed in order to aid slowing down. Not necessarily going down, for drag, but as a way to slow down right now from 245 knots to 210 knots. That, by definition, is a speed brake.