Realistically, what do you want?

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I know I don't really have a dog in the hunt anymore, but lines that have all am shows or pm shows (I believe Southwest has something like this?) so that way your body isn't flipping around the clock so much. I'd also like to see something respecting the pilot's body clock (though I can't think of how it would work logistically) whereas if you're commuting from the West Coast to the East coast and have a 6am show on the east coast, you're on 3am body clock, and opposite - if you're an east coaster finishing on the west coast at 11pm (2am body clock).

We pretty much have those kinds of schedules without it being specifically mandated in our contract. I think what does it is our max 12-hour duty day. The pairing generator doesn't really have a whole lot of options for building pairings that jump the show time around a lot without being incredibly inefficient, and it's designed to maximize efficiency, so it has no choice but to keep the show times pretty consistent throughout a pairing. We also have language that requires 80% of the lines to have all pairings on a line start within 8 hours of each other.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Yeah, things have changed for you guys under PBS. When I was at Pinnacle, I once turned one week of vacation into 21 straight days off. PBS changed all of that, apparently.

Actually it's not PBS that's killing me... it's the excessive overstaffing of my base. I can hold 17 days off anywhere else.... but I like the plane, the city, and the pay rate.

 

[Baronman]

I'd like to see less disparity between senior and jr pilots in terms of schedules. I know seniority should have it's benefits, and senior pilots should make higher rates..

Before everyone jumps on saying that the senior guys were junior at some point, every company goes through it's own growth process. Not every senior guy was on rsv for 2 years.

 

[Baronman]

Actually, come to think of it...Doesn't Emirates have some sort of scheduling system like this? There are a few large groups, let's say A, B, C, D and E. You're placed in one of these groups according to your seniority, then each large group rotates as the year goes by in the bidding process.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Actually, come to think of it...Doesn't Emirates have some sort of scheduling system like this? There are a few large groups, let's say A, B, C, D and E. You're placed in one of these groups according to your seniority, then each large group rotates as the year goes by in the bidding process.

Yes, they do have that system, which is one of many reasons that I never even considered working there. The idea of never getting away from reserve, no matter how long you're there just isn't right. Seniority should have its privileges. I like our system just fine.

 

[jtrain609]

Yes, they do have that system, which is one of many reasons that I never even considered working there. The idea of never getting away from reserve, no matter how long you're there just isn't right. Seniority should have its privileges. I like our system just fine.

What about 2-3 reserve days tossed into ALL schedules, with a company provided hotel and assured commubility in the scheduling of said reserve days?

You fly your line for 12 days, then spend 3 more on reserve. If you're a commuter, you're sitting in a decent hotel in base, you don't have to worry about a crashpad, you get paid your minimum daily rate/rig (whichever applies), you get in at noon on your first day, possibly never get used and then go home at noon on your last day.

What's not to love?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What about 2-3 reserve days tossed into ALL schedules, with a company provided hotel and assured commubility in the scheduling of said reserve days?

You fly your line for 12 days, then spend 3 more on reserve. If you're a commuter, you're sitting in a decent hotel in base, you don't have to worry about a crashpad, you get paid your minimum daily rate/rig (whichever applies), you get in at noon on your first day, possibly never get used and then go home at noon on your last day.

What's not to love?

What's not to love? Reserve for the rest of you life. Sorry, I'm not interested. I did my turn on reserve. Time for the next group to pay their dues. They'll be off reserve after a couple of years, and then they'll never have to deal with it again, either. Seniority is a beautiful thing, as long as you've got a tad bit of patience. I'm not interested in spreading the pain around and making everyone equally miserable.

I'll do everything I can to improve reserve work rules to help the guys that are on reserve, but I'm not just going to force everyone to endure reserve perpetually.

 

[jtrain609]

I've run into guys that spent over a decade on reserve.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I've run into guys that spent over a decade on reserve.

Yep. Lots of them at USAirways. But then they'll have another decade, maybe two, without ever having to sit reserve again. Your idea would force all of us to share in the misery for all eternity. I'm not too keen on that.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

What's not to love? Reserve for the rest of you life. Sorry, I'm not interested. I did my turn on reserve. Time for the next group to pay their dues. They'll be off reserve after a couple of years, and then they'll never have to deal with it again, either. Seniority is a beautiful thing, as long as you've got a tad bit of patience. I'm not interested in spreading the pain around and making everyone equally miserable.

I'll do everything I can to improve reserve work rules to help the guys that are on reserve, but I'm not just going to force everyone to endure reserve perpetually.

New ALPA slogan "I got mine... you junior guys"

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

New ALPA slogan "I got mine...you junior guys"

So the entire concept of seniority is now offensive to you and equivalent to "you junior guys?" Give me a break.

 

[kellwolf]

So the entire concept of seniority is now offensive to you and equivalent to " you junior guys?" Give me a break.

Actually, a lot of the senior guys over here are taking that EXACT stance when we start complaining about how crappy reserve is now. They start into the "well back on the Saab" and "When I started I only made $XX" tirades. I can almost see them rolling up a ladder as they talk. When you ask one of them "Okay. Well, tell ya what. If it's not so bad, I'll swap you my 3 days of RSV for your 3 day trip." They back down REAL quick after that. One of them even said something to the tune of "All you do on ready reserve is surf the internet and flirt with FAs. What's the big deal?" We had a guy last week that was scheduled 5 days of home RSV. All FIVE turned into ready reserve....and it was totally contractual. To make matters worse....he was one of the SENIOR guys on RSV. Thanks to PBS, it doesn't matter if you're dead last or at the top of the list on RSV since nothing goes in seniority order. They've been awarding RR to "whoever's schedule it fits best" rather than the junior guys. Why? Not required under the contract. In fact, DW has gone as far to say the the current scheduling section in our contract doesn't apply anymore.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

So the entire concept of seniority is now offensive to you and equivalent to "you junior guys?" Give me a break.

Your comment reminds me a lot of the people who question your patriotism any time you criticize the government.

There is a huge difference in QOL between the junior and senior guys in this industry and in my experience there are few senior guys who truly care. As I'm sure you know at my company there was recently a vote on whether to establish a fund to help out the guys who are furloughed. Hardly anyone voted and it passed. I can't enter the pilot lounge without hearing one of our OFC's (Old Fat Captains) bitching and moaning about "its my money, I earned it, they should have been prepared to be furloughed...when I was junior, blah blah blah". I just recnetly recieved my invoice for that and it was something just shy of $4.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

So the entire concept of seniority is now offensive to you and equivalent to "F you junior guys?" Give me a break.

How long did you sit reserve as an FO at Pinnacle? As a CA?

 

[Baronman]

So the entire concept of seniority is now offensive to you and equivalent to "you junior guys?" Give me a break.

I don't think I agree with that statement. I don't think the entire concept of seniority is offensive, senior pilots should get paid more and should have better schedules and get more vacation time.

Senior pilots will get paid more based on years of service period. They will have more vacation time accrued as well allowing more time off. Seniority also allows them to sit in the highest paying seat (CA vs FO) as well as the highest paying aircraft (767 vs MD88).

This mentality of me is reminiscent of hazing, "we've all had to go through it" is the most common argument. Again I don't this is always true, its easy to say though. Some dodge the bullet any career impediment....Get on with a regional with low time, do rsv for 2 months and then onwards and upwards. Things keep moving fast and they have no interest in ever seeing those junior spots having improved QOL because it will just diminish their QOL later on. They've already dodged the bullet and they're not going to give anything up. Sure, they were junior too ;-)

I guess junior pilots are the easiest to sell out when at the bargaining table. Why? Because they don't have a seat.

 

[Polar742]

All ya'll, pull your heads out.

1) No reserve for lineholders.

That's just a dumb idea. Eternal reserve means lots of guys trying to get a corporate job. Trust me. I've held lines (most of my career) and sat reserve (a sliver in the grand scheme). JR, you know I've sat reserve as long as you have. The rules make all the difference. However, once you hold a line, you are relieved of that goat rope.

2) Make rules that make reserve better off, like at certain carriers now.

Sure there are senior guys that say "Well before we had explosive growth, and I was a FO for 4 years before I upgrade and sat reserve for 2 of them and made 23k at most flying airplanes held together with bailing wire." However the flip side is after doing all that, you hear people who upgrade after a year or 2 on property in to brand new equipment do nothing but bitch because of how terrible it is. There is always a Yin to the Yang.

Not saying either is right, but there can be much improved rules to reserve. Unless the senior guy is on the negotiating committee, he's just talking.

Trust me, reserve with the RIGHT rules isn't as bad as reserve at the commuters. I sat maybe 1 month or so of reserve at CHQ, and I had plenty of friends that sat lots of reserve there. I did everything in my power to avoid reserve, and with a bit of luck, the only reserve I sat was once I was done with upgrades but not early enough in the month to get a bid in. Now, at Polar, we have sociable rules. There are some things that suck, like calling to get a release to go have a dinner on occasion, since you only get 24 off in 7, otherwise it's 8 hours off every night. But, at the end of the day, I have a hotel, a company issued phone that sends us schedule updates, allowing us a longer leash. And worst case, they keep you out for your entire footprint and not fly you, you get more than the guarantee due to the rig.

And even better is R1, or home reserve. You have a 12 hour call out, but if they give you less than 30 hours of notice, they buy you a ticket from home. The only thing we need to upgrade is them not switching us from R1 to R2 without a ride to work.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

2) Make rules that make reserve better off, like at certain carriers now.

Sure there are senior guys that say "Well before we had explosive growth, and I was a FO for 4 years before I upgrade and sat reserve for 2 of them and made 23k at most flying airplanes held together with bailing wire." However the flip side is after doing all that, you hear people who upgrade after a year or 2 on property in to brand new equipment do nothing but bitch because of how terrible it is. There is always a Yin to the Yang.

Not saying either is right, but there can be much improved rules to reserve. Unless the senior guy is on the negotiating committee, he's just talking.

Trust me, reserve with the RIGHT rules isn't as bad as reserve at the commuters. I sat maybe 1 month or so of reserve at CHQ, and I had plenty of friends that sat lots of reserve there. I did everything in my power to avoid reserve, and with a bit of luck, the only reserve I sat was once I was done with upgrades but not early enough in the month to get a bid in. Now, at Polar, we have sociable rules. There are some things that suck, like calling to get a release to go have a dinner on occasion, since you only get 24 off in 7, otherwise it's 8 hours off every night. But, at the end of the day, I have a hotel, a company issued phone that sends us schedule updates, allowing us a longer leash. And worst case, they keep you out for your entire footprint and not fly you, you get more than the guarantee due to the rig.

And even better is R1, or home reserve. You have a 12 hour call out, but if they give you less than 30 hours of notice, they buy you a ticket from home. The only thing we need to upgrade is them not switching us from R1 to R2 without a ride to work.

That would be OK too. But the philosophy at ASA is to put out fires as they arise, not to do things to keep them from happening in the first place. I just don't think that the regionals are run in a way that you could make reserve be anything like that.

This is less about my experience (thankfully) on reserve and more for those who seem to be eternally screwed and have been/will be on reserve for years. I'm lucky I bid the airplane that I did in initial training. Those who bid the 50 seater haven't even come close to holding a line. If I was them I would probably have quit or be in jail for pulling a "milton" on crew scheduling (kidding of course). Reserve in small doses isn't that bad.

 

[Baronman]

I'm fairly familiar with rsv.....honestly I don't expect senior guys to be doing months of rsv on end. But I don't see the harm of everyone doing what would amount to 1 month of rsv cumulatively during a year. Where I do see harm is junior guys, on never ending reserve, making min guarantee and 10-12 days off a month.

Actually I didn't intend for the discussion to just revolve around reserve. Really I'm thinking of the gaping disparity in QOL and pay between senior and junior pilots.

 

[Polar742]

That would be OK too. But the philosophy at ASA is to put out fires as they arise, not to do things to keep them from happening in the first place. I just don't think that the regionals are run in a way that you could make reserve be anything like that.

This is less about my experience (thankfully) on reserve and more for those who seem to be eternally screwed and have been/will be on reserve for years. I'm lucky I bid the airplane that I did in initial training. Those who bid the 50 seater haven't even come close to holding a line. If I was them I would probably have quit or be in jail for pulling a "milton" on crew scheduling (kidding of course). Reserve in small doses isn't that bad.

Well, it's not just ASA's philosophy, pretty much every company runs that way.

Also, your note on people stuck on reserve is an important lesson to everyone looking to enter the airlines. You need to be aware of the reserve rules, and the lowest pay on the smallest equipment. Unless you are in the top 10% of seniority at an airline, there is a chance you could be in that position. One must do a gut check and determine if they can live on the reserve rules on min guarantee for years.

Crew Planning is strategic, and if that plan was worked to perfection then there would be no need for crew scheduling. Crew scheduling is tactical by nature and is to try to put the plan back together.

In a broader view, the discussion of reserve and why it sucks is why the wording, not the "spirit", in the CBA is important. You must give the company a construct under which to operate scheduling. You must expect the company to push the bounds of the guide.

Look, the company gives you a stack of manuals on how they expect you to conduct yourself. It's just important to give the company a standard set of rules on how the personnel are to be treated.

Obviously in a perfect world the entire volumes of manuals would be succinctly printed as thus: "Don't do anything dumb, use common sense, make sure your coworkers know what's going on, and we'll maintain the airplanes to like-new, or better manufacturer condition". And the contract would read "The company will pay a fair livable wage, with adjustments to keep up with expanded productivity and COLA, as well as giving you a good balance of home time".

There was a time, back years ago, where only the most senior guys would hold reserve, as the rules made it the most desirable schedule. That has passed, but a happy medium on reserve, where you actually fly and aren't an indentured servant are definately within grasp.

 

[Polar742]

I'm fairly familiar with rsv.....honestly I don't expect senior guys to be doing months of rsv on end. But I don't see the harm of everyone doing what would amount to 1 month of rsv cumulatively during a year. Where I do see harm is junior guys, on never ending reserve, making min guarantee and 10-12 days off a month.

Actually I didn't intend for the discussion to just revolve around reserve. Really I'm thinking of the gaping disparity in QOL and pay between senior and junior pilots.

I agree with the enormous pay disparity being a huge problem.

I adamantly disagree with everyone having to sit reserve. Why should someone who's at the top of the seniority list not be able to pick the schedule they want? If they want a line with certain days off, fine. If they want reserve, fine.

The only people that a "rotating" reserve schedule would help are those on the very bottom of the list. Everyone else loses. Be it pay credit, days off, or being able to hold the specific days off, or being able to choose what they want for their seniority position.

Also, why not just let the middle guys bid first. I mean after all, you can't expect them to work weekends for years on end, do you?

I sat as the absolute bottom of my aircraft list for a year. However, coming to the job, I read the CBA and decided that the terms for reserve are something I could deal with for an indefinite period. Now, since I switched aircraft, I am at that place where I can pick my days off. Sometimes that will place me between a line and reserve, but I can also choose not to sit reserve.