Realistically, what do you want?

FlyChicaga

FlyChicaga

Vintage Restoration
I will put out this question to the JC membership: Realistically, what do you want from a pilot contract? Work rules, vacation, per diem, retirement, and so forth?

The one ultimatum about this whole "exercise" is this: You CANNOT post you hopeful income. Once again, PAY is NOT a consideration.

Besides the money, what are your ideal work rules you would like to see?

Besides the pay-rate-compensation restriction, there is one more... You cannot, under any circumstances, post something out of reach from negotiations. So, to say you'd like to be paid for 80 hours of work while only flying 20... well, find another thread Mr. (Mrs.) Imagineer.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I will put out this question to the JC membership: Realistically, what do you want from a pilot contract? Work rules, vacation, per diem, retirement, and so forth?

The one ultimatum about this whole "exercise" is this: You CANNOT post you hopeful income. Once again, PAY is NOT a consideration.

Besides the money, what are your ideal work rules you would like to see?

Besides the pay-rate-compensation restriction, there is one more... You cannot, under any circumstances, post something out of reach from negotiations. So, to say you'd like to be paid for 80 hours of work while only flying 20... well, find another thread Mr. (Mrs.) Imagineer.
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I like the current XJ contract for the commuter policy because it doesn't reflect current address. In other words I can commute in from a vacation. Would like to see it down to one flight though. If I can't make it in one, pos space me or get someone else to pick it up.

I'd like to get the hotel points personally, instead of them going to the company. Although I'll never use them.

No RR rest built into a line... EVER

Furthermore I hate reduced rest.

Perdiem (isn't this a pay issue?) should reflect realistic prices at airports. Gonna take more than 1.55, sorry

Retirement. Strickly 401k. I know pensions are better in theory, but ever since it became legal to dump the retirement into the company coffers and give it out as bonus money I'm awestruck at the stupidity of it. If I contribute, company matches. I pick where the money is going into.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I will put out this question to the JC membership: Realistically, what do you want from a pilot contract? Work rules, vacation, per diem, retirement, and so forth?

The one ultimatum about this whole "exercise" is this: You CANNOT post you hopeful income. Once again, PAY is NOT a consideration.

Besides the money, what are your ideal work rules you would like to see?

Besides the pay-rate-compensation restriction, there is one more... You cannot, under any circumstances, post something out of reach from negotiations. So, to say you'd like to be paid for 80 hours of work while only flying 20... well, find another thread Mr. (Mrs.) Imagineer.
Click to expand...


Work Rules:

Well, something that won't lead to fatigue. Realistically working 12 to 15 days per month while flying close to 80 block hours is manageable for both parties.

Vacation:

Minimum of 30 days per year, preferably 42. The Europeans do it so why can't we?

Per Diem:

This should only cover your costs on the road. It's not meant to be another form of income.

Retirement:

Pension set at 65% of final average earnings for long service employees. Taken at age 60 with no penalty for those who meet the service requirement ( say 30 years ). Pension rules and funding requirements to be amended to reflect those of Europe where companies do not have the ability to cancel them at a whim.

You forgot seniority:

Seniority to be a rotating bid on aircraft type. No more having guys who are forever senior and guys who are forever junior for monthly bidding purposes or for vacation bidding purposes. Seniority still to be used for bidding aircraft type, but once on type the rotation starts. All pilots on type placed in one of 5 groups. Groups rotate each month so you get an average of two tops bids per year and two bottom bids per year.

Pay to be based on length of service not aircraft type. Prevents a lot of unnecessary training and doesn't penalize guys who don't want to fly widebody or long haul.


Lots more to talk about including health care, sick leave, training, furlough, scope, flow through, etc, etc.


Typhoonpilot
 
Pay protection.
If it was on my schedule, I get paid for it. None of this "oh well, it was cancelled and you didn't get any flying to replace it" c-r-a-p.
 
We are dealing with that issue locally now as we start negotiations in June. It's interesting that when we first started polling the pilot group most people's response was "more money". After actually doing some education effort people saw that our CA rates are well above the industry average (which isn't saying much) and really just need a good COLA fix. Our FO rates do need to come up appreciably due to them being set artificially low during the switch from props to jets because the entire leadership structure didn't care about the junior guys.

So people are realizing that what really needs to be fixed are all QOL issues. I don't know if every property is like this but that's certainly the case over here.
 
A reasonable sick policy that you are not afraid to use. I have to be pretty sick to be willing to use one of my sick strikes. Too many strikes and your out.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I like the current XJ contract for the commuter policy because it doesn't reflect current address. In other words I can commute in from a vacation. Would like to see it down to one flight though. If I can't make it in one, pos space me or get someone else to pick it up.

I'd like to get the hotel points personally, instead of them going to the company. Although I'll never use them.

No RR rest built into a line... EVER

Furthermore I hate reduced rest.

Perdiem (isn't this a pay issue?) should reflect realistic prices at airports. Gonna take more than 1.55, sorry

Retirement. Strickly 401k. I know pensions are better in theory, but ever since it became legal to dump the retirement into the company coffers and give it out as bonus money I'm awestruck at the stupidity of it. If I contribute, company matches. I pick where the money is going into.
Click to expand...

Good point there........
 
FlyChicaga said:
So, to say you'd like to be paid for 80 hours of work while only flying 20... well, find another thread Mr. (Mrs.) Imagineer.
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While our current contract (circa 1995) presently does allow for this, there are definitely things I'd like to see.

Our current contract also allows those that want to be home in their time off to do so, and those that want to live on the road to be paid by the Brinks Car rolling up to the house. Which allows everyone to have the option for home time or hustle for money.

I agree with TyphoonPilot on about everything (most of that does reflect EK's present T&Cs, doesn't it?), except the rotable schedules.

Since retirements are self-funded these days, either a dollar for dollar match into 401(k) or a marginal bump from the 5% company contribution and a "b" plan paralleling the 401k where the company will contribute a minimum of 20% of Gross earnings into an account matched by me.

As typhoonpilot said, scheduling that reflects, at a minimum of JAA standards. respecting circadian rhythms. Either a 18 hour or less, or 36 hour or more rest.

Any crew configuration that's not a basic crew will fall under flag rules, allowing a double out when you touch your base.

6:1 trip rig to get you down to a reasonable work foot print, and keeping you efficient, again in agreement with typhoon pilot.

And a standard 15% payraise for each payscale for every 12 months the contract has passed it's "amendable" date without resolution.

Again, currently, we have a nice array of health care products for medical, dental and vision that we can mix and match, especially helpful if you have a significant other who has benefits. No complaints here.

Above, all - Scope that has the pilots on the seniority list covered by the CBA do all the flying for the company, the company's parent or any subsidiary, or company controlled by the company, the company's parent or any scheme that has real or implied control of another company, or any crew leasing arrangements. Otherwise, all the blood sweat and tears that went into negotiating a dream contract are for naught.
 
The big ones:

1. No mandatory junior manning or reflows scheduled to end beyond your current release time (for lineholders). We've got these right now and it's a huge improvement over my former airline (which didn't).

2. Full cancellation pay combined with block-or-better pay on a leg by leg basis. (Example: you're scheduled for 6hrs in 4 legs, but end up overblocking by an hour on the second and having the last two cancel...you get paid the over block plus the credit for the cancelled legs).

3. 8 hrs "at the hotel" like Air Wisconsin has. Also, at the very least, 10hrs rest in domicile or a hub. 9hrs rest in Denver is less than 7 at the hotel. A lot of places have this, but we don't and it really can screw you.

4. A no questions asked sick call policy.

5. Commuter policy--I'm fine with two flights.
 
zmiller4 said:
The big ones:

1. No mandatory junior manning or reflows scheduled to end beyond your current release time (for lineholders). We've got these right now and it's a huge improvement over my former airline (which didn't).

2. Full cancellation pay combined with block-or-better pay on a leg by leg basis. (Example: you're scheduled for 6hrs in 4 legs, but end up overblocking by an hour on the second and having the last two cancel...you get paid the over block plus the credit for the cancelled legs).

3. 8 hrs "at the hotel" like Air Wisconsin has. Also, at the very least, 10hrs rest in domicile or a hub. 9hrs rest in Denver is less than 7 at the hotel. A lot of places have this, but we don't and it really can screw you.

4. A no questions asked sick call policy.

5. Commuter policy--I'm fine with two flights.
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Pretty much the same wish list for me, but I'll tack on to the commuter policy that the company will positive space you X amount of times per year if you can't get on two flights. I think UPS does this. I know I had a UPS JSer trying to get on one of our flights, and it was his back up. Flight canceled, and I saw him about 45 minutes later with a positive space ticket in his hand.....care of UPS.

This sorta ties in with pay, but it also goes with JMing. Don't make JMs mandatory, but pay them at 200%. I can guarantee you if you're paying double time for an out and back, SOMEONE will pick it up. You won't have to tick someone off that was planning on spending a Saturday with his kids to cover it.

401k with a decent match, health insurance for me, my wife and my dependent children that won't break the bank on co-pays or premiums and a minimum of 12 days off a month.
 
I realistically want to get paid from report time to release time.
I realistically want to get 8 hours inside the hotel room.
I realistically want 2 or 3 personal days a year. (24 hour notice is fine)
I realistically want better lines for my commuter friends. Long call even.
I realistically want a decent 401k plan for my retirement.
I realistically want better travel benefits here at Colgan.

All fair requests. Most will never happen.
 
Also, we have long call reserve right now...but it's not truly seniority-based. LC's get called in reverse seniority for open trips more than 12hrs out *before* more junior pilots on short call. I'd like a long call policy that really honors seniority.
 
Well, we were getting close to finalizing negotiations, but not sure where we are now since our union blew up.

But...keep no junior manning, as we have now.

Full cancellation pay, regardless of the reason.

Trip/duty rigs.

Increase our F/O pay to make it more in line with the equipment we're flying.

Better hotel rules for longer overnights...(huge fan of XJT's hotel rules for overnights)

This list could go on and on...
 
Velocipede said:
Rotating seniority. Now there's a truely BAD idea. You pay your dues, you get the benefits of your seniority.
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It's a bad idea for who?

The problem I see is, and it could be fixed with pay, the people who need the money the most get the least opportunity to earn it. Unless of course people pick up open time to help pad their check. I'd love to make my earning power go farther, but I'm making $2000 a month right now doing zero flying. I hate not flying, that's the worst part of this job.
 
Its a bad idea for YOU. Why? Because eventually YOU will be senior. Then see how much you like having to sit reserve 4 months a year while some junior slug holds a decent line of flying.

What sounds good when we're nubies sounds horrible when we're kahunas.
 
Velocipede said:
Its a bad idea for YOU. Why? Because eventually YOU will be senior. Then see how much you like having to sit reserve 4 months a year while some junior slug holds a decent line of flying.

What sounds good when we're nubies sounds horrible when we're kahunas.
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What about the ability, rather than rotating seniority, (and I've heard that other companies actually allow this), to look in open time while on reserve and say, hey, I want to do that. I think it was called "aggresive pickup". I'd love to be able to chuck a trip onto my schedule on reserve. Obviously, respecting the fact that someone who looks to pick up open time as a line holder or trade trips might want it first.... but you could always encourage trip trades between pilots.
 
ThatOtherDude said:
I realistically want to get paid from report time to release time.
I realistically want to get 8 hours inside the hotel room.
I realistically want 2 or 3 personal days a year. (24 hour notice is fine)
I realistically want better lines for my commuter friends. Long call even.
I realistically want a decent 401k plan for my retirement.
I realistically want better travel benefits here at Colgan.

All fair requests. Most will never happen.
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Why do you think most will never happpen?
 
cencal83406 said:
What about the ability, rather than rotating seniority, (and I've heard that other companies actually allow this), to look in open time while on reserve and say, hey, I want to do that. I think it was called "aggresive pickup". I'd love to be able to chuck a trip onto my schedule on reserve. Obviously, respecting the fact that someone who looks to pick up open time as a line holder or trade trips might want it first.... but you could always encourage trip trades between pilots.
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Eagle does something similar they call reserve proffering. Between like 1-5pm every day, you can look at what trips and reserve periods are available and basically request a specific one. It goes in order of seniority, though, so the senior reserve will get the sweet trip if they proffer for it.

It was pretty nice to be able to proffer for the AM ready reserve on your last day because you knew you were almost certainly going to be off in time to get home...unless you got the shaft with a 14hr day.

Skywest has no official reserve proffering, but when there's significant open time (there's none right now) the crew schedulers are supposedly really good about giving you what you want if you just call up and ask. I knew an FO in TUS who was stuck on reserve for almost a year, but ended up pretty much building himself a line by making friends with schedulers.
 
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