Rant

Kingairer said:
I've never been to TEB, what SID and Runway specifically?
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TEB 4 off 1

And off MMU the MMU 7 off 5

Neither particularly complicated


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Skåning said:
It’s no better at mainline. That describes ~75% of the FOs I fly with too. SMH. The box pops up with “drag required” and they immediately grab a fist full of speed brake.

Well hold up, do the mental 3/1 math. We’re fine, the Guppy just sucks. I think very few do any mental math and just “Jesus take the wheel” with the VNAV.

Then we level and the engines roar up. Cmon.
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I had one FO start calling out my VDev as being ~250 ft high and then ~500 ft high and “increasing” during a VNAV descend out of the flight levels. Like dude, give it a second, we are fine.


Also, one of the most misunderstood: VNAV behavior once they open the speed window, maybe slow down, and then still think they’re high because of VNAV showing that. Your speed window is open, you’re already at 250 kts now, but the box still has that speed reduction coming up at 12,000 and 250. They still keep the boards out anyway. Of course as we approach 12k and now the speed window is closed, the airplane is already at 250 and VNAV math changes. But I don’t think any learning occurred.
 
Kingairer said:
Interesting. What clearance are you giving them that they are screwing up. Are these more foreign pilots or pilots who fly internationally? ICAO and Canadian desc/via clearances differ from US which could cause confusion.
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“N1234 radar contact climb via except maintain 6000"

No notable accents. All US registered jets.
 
That was a joke on last week events....Anyways, I believe you are probably dealing with less experience flyers on that SID. A 2000' level off is the lowest anyone will see and in a light corporate jet, workload would be high. A sid like this with a heading, and then another heading would be more manually inserted than a SID with RNAV waypoints that you could load into the box and watch the magic. This also could play into the altitude confusion as typically the SID with a climb via would have clear points to cross at certain altitudes. For example reference the LGA7 vs TENIS6. Not at an excuse, but if you are new and havent done a good briefing or not sure what to expect I can see it being high workload leading to some errors. I do not understand why youd be getting heading queries.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I had one FO start calling out my VDev as being ~250 ft high and then ~500 ft high and “increasing” during a VNAV descend out of the flight levels. Like dude, give it a second, we are fine.


Also, one of the most misunderstood: VNAV behavior once they open the speed window, maybe slow down, and then still think they’re high because of VNAV showing that. Your speed window is open, you’re already at 250 kts now, but the box still has that speed reduction coming up at 12,000 and 250. They still keep the boards out anyway. Of course as we approach 12k and now the speed window is closed, the airplane is already at 250 and VNAV math changes. But I don’t think any learning occurred.
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that’s because they don’t understand the difference between VNAV path and VNAV speed, and why it alternates between the two.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Ok wtf guys. I’ve been bitching to @killbilly for the past couple weeks about this but since when did “climb via except maintain x thousand” become a complicated procedure? I got guys off TEB levelling off at 2000 when told maintain 6000, I got guys off MMU asking what heading I want them to fly on the Morristown 7. This has come beyond ridiculous .
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It’s a simple clearance.

Generational, maybe? “Climb Via” is a modern concept for a lot of us so we’re used to listening for the nuances between climb and maintain, climb via or climb via and maintain.

Training ground those differences into our brains in CQ/recurrent over the years and it’s assumed to be something we’re all good with.

People trained more recently or significantly later than the changes occurred may not have that same level of reverence for listening for the differences.

Take for example PRM approaches, those got drilled in our heads for a few years before they started showing up. You’d do breakout and breakout in the simulator, tune the monitor frequencies. But during domestic OE, I started having more and more pilots not catch that the visual 27L became the ILS 27L and at the last minute the ILS PRM 27L and “Well, same procedure, we’re going to to tune the ILS for the visual anyway”. -Holdup holdup holdup.

Random thoughts from a jet-lagged Seoul morning.
 
derg said:
Take for example PRM approaches, those got drilled in our heads for a few years before they started showing up. You’d do breakout and breakout in the simulator, tune the monitor frequencies. But during domestic OE, I started having more and more pilots not catch that the visual 27L became the ILS 27L and at the last minute the ILS PRM 27L and “Well, same procedure, we’re going to to tune the ILS for the visual anyway”. -Holdup holdup holdup.
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“Don’t hit the plane next to you, at any time” 🤣
 
derg said:
Yes!

“Hey, make sure you put the monitor frequency in #2 and crank it up”

“Monitor frequency?”
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Yes, the freq labeled “PRM”, and the note of requiring at least two VHF freqs?

People seriously don’t know this stuff?
 
MikeD said:
On these two, what is getting screwed up. Confusion on the altitude clearance given?
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On the TEB they’re leveling at 2000 when told climb via maintain 6000 and it’s happening a lot. MMU it was only one guy but after reading back the climb via and climbing out of 3500 still going runway heading he asked what heading I wanted him on
 
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