Rant

MikeD said:
Originally how i interpret it. Fly the SID, climb the SID, except that any altitude restrictions are now replaced with an instruction to go directly to 6000’
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"Climb via except maintain" hasn't ever, in my experience, removed any intermediate altitude restrictions. "Climb via except maintain" and "Descend via except maintain" haven't ever, as far as I'm aware, waived any restrictions. "Descend and maintain X" does, as does "Climb and maintain." At no point does a climb or a descent clearance allow you to deviate from your cleared route, as far as I know.

I'm really not seeing the confusion here, or anything confusing. I'm actually confused enough by people's confusion that I'm not even sure what's going on.
 
Ah, I see. "Climb via except maintain <altitude above the top altitude on the SID>" would be confusing and abnormal. Typically "climb via except maintain" is for an altitude that is below the top altitude of the SID. "Descend via, except maintain" is for an altitude above the bottom altitude.

It's a bit harder trying to decipher the NOS charts, if I'm being honest.
 
🦈💜 said:
Ah, I see. "Climb via except maintain <altitude above the top altitude on the SID>" would be confusing and abnormal. Typically "climb via except maintain" is for an altitude that is below the top altitude of the SID. "Descend via, except maintain" is for an altitude above the bottom altitude.

It's a bit harder trying to decipher the NOS charts, if I'm being honest.
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I don’t find that all that confusing. You’re cleared to a higher altitude than the SID but them still needing the restrictions makes sense. I’m assuming SID top altitudes are based on where the upper limit of their airspace is in those cases, but maybe someone with experience on that can chime in.
 
So the FAQ @NovemberEcho posted is exactly my interpretation, and it's what I've been doing for the last 5,200 hours. Literally the only thing I see that could be even possibly confusing is the issuance of a "climb via except maintain" clearance that has an altitude higher than the top altitude. That's non-standard.

"Climb via except maintain 6,000" = Climb on the vertical and lateral path of the SID, to include any intermediate altitudes, speeds and so on.
"Climb via SID" = Climb on the vertical and lateral path of the SID, to include any altitudes, speeds and so on, to the top altitude.
"Climb and maintain 6,000" = Climb to 6,000' immediately on the lateral path of the SID, to include any speed restrictions.

People who aren't following the lateral path of the SID are simply deviating from the clearance. It's not confusing.

However, if you're giving them "climb via sid except maintain 6,000" and the published top altitude is 2,000, that's confusing.
 
JordanD said:
I don’t find that all that confusing. You’re cleared to a higher altitude than the SID but them still needing the restrictions makes sense. I’m assuming SID top altitudes are based on where the upper limit of their airspace is in those cases, but maybe someone with experience on that can chime in.
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Personally, I wouldn't find it confusing, operationally, but it's not something I've ever had a controller do, and it doesn't fit into the normal pattern. To me, that is non-standard and potentially ambiguous, and I'd probably clarify if I was the PM.

We like things to follow normal patterns.
 
Look. It’s just easier to ask for progressive altitudes which is what you’re going to give me anyway on departure or arrival. What’s the point of chatting them all if they never get used.
 
scooter2525 said:
Look. It’s just easier to ask for progressive altitudes which is what you’re going to give me anyway on departure or arrival. What’s the point of chatting them all if they never get used.
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Yeah. The RNAV departures/arrivals are supposed to make the ATC system more efficient. But it is honestly much of the same as the past in the US.
 
KLB said:
Yeah. The RNAV departures/arrivals are supposed to make the ATC system more efficient. But it is honestly much of the same as the past in the US.
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They’re great if there’s only one airport in play. But I have planes from 4 airports I have to avoid/cross/get in trail and that’s before you even hit 10k and have 6 more airports traffic to deal with. And then there’s always the 717 that needs vectors all over the place because they can’t top the 6000’ downwind 20 miles away
 
NovemberEcho said:
Ok wtf guys. I’ve been bitching to @killbilly for the past couple weeks about this but since when did “climb via except maintain x thousand” become a complicated procedure? I got guys off TEB levelling off at 2000 when told maintain 6000, I got guys off MMU asking what heading I want them to fly on the Morristown 7. This has come beyond ridiculous .
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Stop being a garbage controller?
 
While we are ranting….

I can’t figure out why ATC makes me file a departure out of….say Phoenix….and then immediately turns me off of it and then proceeds to step climb me all the way out to LALUZ.

I’ve tried filling direct FORPE or something further south only to be given the departure anyway and then immediately taken off of it and vectored to wherever. What gives?
 
Wardogg said:
While we are ranting….

I can’t figure out why ATC makes me file a departure out of….say Phoenix….and then immediately turns me off of it and then proceeds to step climb me all the way out to LALUZ.

I’ve tried filling direct FORPE or something further south only to be given the departure anyway and then immediately taken off of it and vectored to wherever. What gives?
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NORDO
 
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