Rant

NovemberEcho said:
Well that gets messed up even more often if I just “climb and maintain” with people staying on the initial 040 heading and not turning per the SID because they believe I have now taken them off the SID.
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Yeah I get it, that shouldnt happen and is an FUp on them and not a poor clerance. But I get it, in that airspace I am sure you'd rather then drone around at 2000 a bit longer rather than flying into EWR traffic.
 
KLB said:
It depends on if traffic is above going to EWR. We leveled at 1500 just barely and was given a "climb and maintain 6000" the other day.

If we are level at 1500ft or 2000ft....just give us a "climb and maintain" and just be done with it. Enough pilots have busted the SID to where many are skiddish and a "climb via the SID" just adds another level of insecurity to the whole ordeal.

I'll say it again...the SID has gotten better, but it is more complicated than it seems at face value. The quick level off, being below the class bravo, and noise abatement procedure, getting a TA from traffic going into is also normal. Plus TEB just being TEB and everything that goes along with TEB.
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You’ll never get a climb via on the WENTZ. This is just the Teterboro 4 departure off 1 and 6.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Hence the “except maintain” because all I am changing is the altitude portion of
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No worries. Just understand that if we ask for a clarification, it’s just because we want to:
1. Be safe
2. Stay out of trouble
3. Comply with your instructions.

If we (my flying partner and I) are not 100% certain what we’re supposed to do. We ask.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Climb via is the lateral guidance. Except maintain is vertical guidance. Otherwise you’d be on vectors.
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But if it were flown correctly, just saying "Radar contact, climb and maintain 6000" *should result in the airplane doing the same thing as "climb via, except maintaining 6000." The "climb via" seems an unnecessary inclusion as I have already been cleared (PDC)via the TEB1 departure (but it sounds like crews are Fin this up, so I get why you are renforcing it)
 
Yeah. Unless we get a lateral revision, we’re just gonna stay on the magenta (or in my case, green) line…
 
NovemberEcho said:
You’ll never get a climb via on the WENTZ. This is just the Teterboro 4 departure off 1 and 6.
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Yeah. Even still. "Climb and maintain" works. When I hear "Climb via SID except maintain" I'm looking for crossing restrictions and the only thing I see on the TEB4 is 2000ft. There is no altitude restriction after that....and me and the other person are trying to figure out "what did he mean by that....I don't know. Let's query him so that we don't fudge this fiz up." And then the controller gets mad that we are trying to sort out any confusion and chirps at us....and then I have to remind the controller that I'm just trying to reduce future paperwork for the both of us.
 
Maybe they should just change the Sid and get rid of the top altitude, or make it higher. Then you can issue the lower altitude if you need it.
 
MikeD said:
Originally how i interpret it. Fly the SID, climb the SID, except that any altitude restrictions are now replaced with an instruction to go directly to 6000’
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If it had lower altitude restriction (which this one has none) theyd all still apply in an "except" clearance, only the top would be changed.
 
KLB said:
Plus TEB just being TEB and everything that goes along with TEB.
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Honestly, the FAA’s willingness to allow the shenanigans at TEB, SMO, PWK, BFI (insert GA airport near big boy airport here) shows the priority on pushing airline tin over GA safety. For instance, an airline would never accept having to cancel IFR in MVFR and flying some awkward in between a traffic pattern and circling maneuver, and yet that’s any time the winds are out of the north at PWK. But we can’t delay the 5th RJ of the day to South Podunk out of ORD. I’ll get off my soap box the day the airlines are reregulated.
 
Toobdrvr said:
I’m not a huge fan of “climb via, EXCEPT…”. I’d prefer “Climb via TO XXX”, or “Climb to XXX, Comply with restrictions”, but it is what it is. I can deal.
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I'm the exact opposite. First off, in my opinion,"TO" in any clearance that involves numbers is likely ambiguous.
"Climb via to six thousand" = Ok, sure, climbing FL260. ("What a weird controller, two six thousand instead of FL260. Oh well, controllers are all overworked and tired. Flaps up, after takeoff checklist complete.")

"Comply with restrictions" is confusing and unnecessarily verbose, except in Canada where it's necessary to clarify based on their different expectations.

"Climb via except maintain 6,000"? Blindingly. Freaking. Obvious. (Spins altitude selector, lets VNAV do its job, verifies.)
"Climb and maintain FL230." Also obvious. (Spins altitude selector, chooses climb direct or green FLCH)
"Climb via sid." (Sets top altitude, lets VNAV do its job, verfiies.) What's confusing?
 
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