Rant

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It’s a simple clearance.

Generational, maybe? “Climb Via” is a modern concept for a lot of us so we’re used to listening for the nuances between climb and maintain, climb via or climb via and maintain.

Training ground those differences into our brains in CQ/recurrent over the years and it’s assumed to be something we’re all good with.

People trained more recently or significantly later than the changes occurred may not have that same level of reverence for listening for the differences.

Take for example PRM approaches, those got drilled in our heads for a few years before they started showing up. You’d do breakout and breakout in the simulator, tune the monitor frequencies. But during domestic OE, I started having more and more pilots not catch that the visual 27L became the ILS 27L and at the last minute the ILS PRM 27L and “Well, same procedure, we’re going to to tune the ILS for the visual anyway”. -Holdup holdup holdup.

Random thoughts from a jet-lagged Seoul morning.

“Don’t hit the plane next to you, at any time”

They took PRM approaches out of our Op Specs. Don't have to worry about them if you can't do 'em.


To be fair, it's mostly ORD and ATL, and I guess we just don't have as large a presence at those two airports as other majors do.

 

[🦈💜]

Yes!

“Hey, make sure you put the monitor frequency in #2 and crank it up”

“Monitor frequency?”

I literally had this conversation earlier in the week heading into ORD.
"Didn't you do this in training?"
"No."
"Wow, ok. if you look in your charts, you will find a "attention all users" page ..."

 

[ERfly]

“Don’t hit the plane next to you, at any time”

"All breakouts will be HAND FLOWN"

(and for those that know, you read that in the voice from the video).

At AA, PRM approaches were a cAAptain-only maneuver.

 

[FlyinSol0]

"All breakouts will be HAND FLOWN"

(and for those that know, you read that in the voice from the video).

At AA, PRM approaches were a cAAptain-only maneuver.

Not anymore

 

[derg]

Yes, the freq labeled “PRM”, and the note of requiring at least two VHF freqs?

People seriously don’t know this stuff?

- Inattention to detail
- “It’s not that big a deal”
- Sloth
- Failure to understand the purpose

Balls and strikes, man. I call balls and strikes.

 

[derg]

They took PRM approaches out of our Op Specs. Don't have to worry about them if you can't do 'em.


To be fair, it's mostly ORD and ATL, and I guess we just don't have as large a presence at those two airports as other majors do.

Which is dumb and exactly what I’m talking about.

If any airport in your market operates an approach like that, there needs to be familiarity with the approach because no one needs a hard PRM day to get jacked because NorthernTerritoriesAir either (a) accepted one or (b) ATLTRACON issued one without realizing they shouldn’t be taking one.

How many of us sat dumbfounded when Lufthansa couldn’t take a visual at night and it got broadcast across the internet?

 

[derg]

We don’t do PRM anymore now that SFO got rid of them.

Boo!

 

[ASpilot2be]

Is ORD,DTW, and ATL the only airports with PRM now?

 

[derg]

Is ORD,DTW, and ATL the only airports with PRM now?

*Are

-2 points grammar.

Kidding, I’m all hopped up on a breakfast latte which appears to have extra caffeine and maybe traces of crystal meth in it from the hotel coffee shop here in Seoul:

 

[ASpilot2be]

*Are

-2 points grammar.

Kidding, I’m all hopped up on a breakfast latte which appears to have extra caffeine and maybe traces of crystal meth in it from the hotel coffee shop here in Seoul:

View attachment 80719

You can't take points away from zero.

Is that An's?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Which is dumb and exactly what I’m talking about.

If any airport in your market operates an approach like that, there needs to be familiarity with the approach because no one needs a hard PRM day to get jacked because NorthernTerritoriesAir either (a) accepted one or (b) ATLTRACON issued one without realizing they shouldn’t be taking one.

How many of us sat dumbfounded when Lufthansa couldn’t take a visual at night and it got broadcast across the internet?

I know. They aren't hard, per say, but the reason given was that we have to train on them and it wasn't a good use of resources when only 2 big airports we fly into still have them. So now we've been told to look at the ATIS in advance, and give a fair heads up to Approach control that we are unable to accept a PRM approach.

 

[derg]

You can't take points away from zero.

Is that An's?

Nah, we’re at a different hotel toward downtown Seoul. Social Media policy precludes me from saying the hotel tho.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Nah, we’re at a different hotel toward downtown Seoul. Social Media policy precludes me from saying the hotel tho.

Nice! Coffee looks delicious.

 

[killbilly]

*Are

-2 points grammar.

Kidding, I’m all hopped up on a breakfast latte which appears to have extra caffeine and maybe traces of crystal meth in it from the hotel coffee shop here in Seoul:

View attachment 80719

Barista trying to tell you they have a heart-shaped arse?

Because that's hot.

 

[Kingairer]

On the TEB they’re leveling at 2000 when told climb via maintain 6000 and it’s happening a lot. MMU it was only one guy but after reading back the climb via and climbing out of 3500 still going runway heading he asked what heading I wanted him on

Curious, technique or policy to clear "climb via" in this case? Just glancing off runway 1 TEB I dont see any intermediate altitudes. Unless i'm overlooking something, "Radar contact, climb and maintain 6000" and "radar contact climb via maintain 6000" appears the same in this case.

 

[Minuteman]

Barista trying to tell you they have a heart-shaped arse?

ty for preventing me from being the only one to see a latte butte.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Curious, technique or policy to clear "climb via" in this case? Just glancing off runway 1 TEB I dont see any intermediate altitudes. Unless i'm overlooking something, "Radar contact, climb and maintain 6000" and "radar contact climb via maintain 6000" appears the same in this case.

Well I’ve been burned too many times by just saying “c/m 6000” and they proceed to climb on the 040 heading without taking the turn.

 

[derg]

Well I’ve been burned too many times by just saying “c/m 6000” and they proceed to climb on the 040 heading without taking the turn.

I can see how a small handful of people would screw that up thinking you canceled the SID

 

[MikeD]

On the TEB they’re leveling at 2000 when told climb via maintain 6000 and it’s happening a lot. MMU it was only one guy but after reading back the climb via and climbing out of 3500 still going runway heading he asked what heading I wanted him on

To me, the clearance means fly the route except climb to the altitude you said to climb to. Seems easy enough.

- Inattention to detail
- “It’s not that big a deal”
- Sloth
- Failure to understand the purpose

Balls and strikes, man. I call balls and strikes.

I’m a dumbo helo dude mostly, and I know how they are supposed to be flown and the requirements.

 

[knot4u]

I have stories for over beers about that exact thing.

Hence my comment, because that was back in the day.

I used to work for a large charter operator with a very wide variety of aircraft, we still had a couple of Lear 25s on the cert, we also had a couple of G550s that still smelled new. New private jet smell is like new car smell multiplied by 1000, I can recall once walking into a hangar with a brand new G450 and an almost brand new G150 that were opened up and stopping as I walked in to just absorb that smell, my coworker asked me what the hold up was and I explained I was just appreciating the moment.

To your point though regarding Wyvern/Argus, we had some VHNWI as customers and their life insurance carriers would send out their own auditors to have a look at our operations and those folks wouldn't even look at an airplane that was over a decade old, they had self installed blinders on. They'd sign us off as a trusted partner and then their client would charter whatever airplane they wanted to. I've actually inquired with both Wyvern and Argus regarding employment as one of their inspectors, that job would be wonderful, everyone's always friendly and putting on a happy face when they meet you and they'll give you the run of the place. I'd imagine it'd be like being the weather guy on the local morning news, the people can just look out the window and figure it out. But I have a face for radio and a bit of a cantankerous streak so neither opportunity ever panned out.