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outside_looking_in
New Member
I just talked to Barry Ohikena, one of the Admissions Officers from DCA, today. He said that you would not save much if any money at all by getting some of your ratings at other schools and then transfering to DCA. Whether this was just slick talk
to help hold DCA above the rest or not is beyond me, but I can tell you this. DCA has been the only school to call me out of about six or eight that I have contacted. It tells me alot about a school when they will not contact you. Barry Ohikena has answered every question I had to ask. He was very honest and welcomed every question I had to ask. If you have any questions I reccomend that you call DCA and ask for Barry. He will answer all of your questions to the best of his ability, If he cannot
, he will tell you who can.
von_Richthofen
New Member
I agree. I've spoken with Barry a few of times too, and only have positive things to say. I do however, plan on getting my PPL elsewhere first to see if I actually would enjoy aviation as a career as opposed to a hobby. Going to DCA and spending the money to find out that you don't like it is an expensive experiment.
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
One of the good points of starting your pvt at Comair/DCA is not having to "Un-learn" any nonstandard procedures that you might pick up at some FBO. My instructor came to Comair with his pvt and his inst. It took a very long time to pick up the procedures, he said. Comair/DCA has a very rigid standardization that has served me well through 2 different airlines in the Boeing 727. Even though the procedures themselvse might be light years apart, the overall effect of training in such a standardized environment will make all of your training a little easier, no matter what/who's procedures your future airline uses later in your career.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One of the good points of starting your pvt at Comair/DCA is not having to "Un-learn" any nonstandard procedures that you might pick up at some FBO.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, cause FBO's don't have procedures or anything like that, right? "Standard Procedures" is a subjective term. Many places have their own standard procedures, including plenty of FBO's and Part 61 flight schools- despite what you may think. Just because they might be different than the holy Comair's procedures, does not mean that they are "non-standard."
[ QUOTE ]
Comair/DCA has a very rigid standardization that has served me well through 2 different airlines in the Boeing 727.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious...how do procedures for flying left seat in a Seminole have anything to do with sitting sideways in a 727, other than maybe using CRM or monitoring engine instruments?
Ooops, I posted in the Comair forum. My bad. Gonna flame me for it again?
One of the good points of starting your pvt at Comair/DCA is not having to "Un-learn" any nonstandard procedures that you might pick up at some FBO.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, cause FBO's don't have procedures or anything like that, right? "Standard Procedures" is a subjective term. Many places have their own standard procedures, including plenty of FBO's and Part 61 flight schools- despite what you may think. Just because they might be different than the holy Comair's procedures, does not mean that they are "non-standard."
[ QUOTE ]
Comair/DCA has a very rigid standardization that has served me well through 2 different airlines in the Boeing 727.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious...how do procedures for flying left seat in a Seminole have anything to do with sitting sideways in a 727, other than maybe using CRM or monitoring engine instruments?
Ooops, I posted in the Comair forum. My bad. Gonna flame me for it again?
Wannabe2
New Member
EatSleepFly,
I think what Cleared ILS 9L was trying to say about procedures is not that any are better or worse than others. What he was saying is that if you are going to get all of your other ratings at DCA using DCA's procedures, you might as well start with them at the beginning.
In working towards my CFI I recently learned about primacy. Those things you learn first are the things you remember best.
While this isn't a flame, just relax a little, there's no reason to get all upset.
I think what Cleared ILS 9L was trying to say about procedures is not that any are better or worse than others. What he was saying is that if you are going to get all of your other ratings at DCA using DCA's procedures, you might as well start with them at the beginning.
In working towards my CFI I recently learned about primacy. Those things you learn first are the things you remember best.
While this isn't a flame, just relax a little, there's no reason to get all upset.
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
Eat-
"Yeah, cause FBO's don't have procedures or anything like that, right? "Standard Procedures" is a subjective term. Many places have their own standard procedures, including plenty of FBO's and Part 61 flight schools- despite what you may think. Just because they might be different than the holy Comair's procedures, does not mean that they are "non-standard."
In the 4 FBO's, and 3 military aero clubs that I have flown with, there was no such thing as flows or standard call-outs. There were at Comair, and in the 727 training using Boeing's procedures while I was getting my F.E. ticket, and at all of the 121 operations that I have worked for, been contracted to, or jumpseated with.
"how do procedures for flying left seat in a Seminole have anything to do with sitting sideways in a 727, other than maybe using CRM or monitoring engine instruments?"
Fair question.
The F.E. is the first one to look at the flight plan, and the A/C log book. At Comair, we got the "can" from dispatch, and had to do exactly what I do now.......look for open write-up's.....all inspections up to date.....finally you do the take-off performance......do you have a backseater on this flight?.....how much weight's back there?.......you get the idea.
Then we did the preflight. Out of all of the General Aviation places I've ever flown at, only Comair expected it's pilots to know what kind of hydraulic fluid was in the nose strut.....what an impulse coupling is. I was impressed, and I already knew all of that from A&P school. They expected the pilots to really "know" the plane, to be able to draw the systems, and have all of the operational regs down cold.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY
Everything was/is standardized. There is none of this, "My instructor likes me to do it this way" It's just like 121 airlines, and unlike any FBO I've ever flown with.
"Yeah, cause FBO's don't have procedures or anything like that, right? "Standard Procedures" is a subjective term. Many places have their own standard procedures, including plenty of FBO's and Part 61 flight schools- despite what you may think. Just because they might be different than the holy Comair's procedures, does not mean that they are "non-standard."
In the 4 FBO's, and 3 military aero clubs that I have flown with, there was no such thing as flows or standard call-outs. There were at Comair, and in the 727 training using Boeing's procedures while I was getting my F.E. ticket, and at all of the 121 operations that I have worked for, been contracted to, or jumpseated with.
"how do procedures for flying left seat in a Seminole have anything to do with sitting sideways in a 727, other than maybe using CRM or monitoring engine instruments?"
Fair question.
The F.E. is the first one to look at the flight plan, and the A/C log book. At Comair, we got the "can" from dispatch, and had to do exactly what I do now.......look for open write-up's.....all inspections up to date.....finally you do the take-off performance......do you have a backseater on this flight?.....how much weight's back there?.......you get the idea.
Then we did the preflight. Out of all of the General Aviation places I've ever flown at, only Comair expected it's pilots to know what kind of hydraulic fluid was in the nose strut.....what an impulse coupling is. I was impressed, and I already knew all of that from A&P school. They expected the pilots to really "know" the plane, to be able to draw the systems, and have all of the operational regs down cold.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY
Everything was/is standardized. There is none of this, "My instructor likes me to do it this way" It's just like 121 airlines, and unlike any FBO I've ever flown with.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
OK, fair answer. And I aplogoize for jumping on you. I guess I sort of took it the wrong way, since I am fighting a never-ending struggle to get my students to use checklists, standard procedures, know systems, etc.
Believe me, I would LOVE for my students to take checklists, and procedures, and all of that seriously...but unless I am their instructor from day one, its like pulling teeth. You have no idea how frustrating it is coming from a very standardized school like DCA (or FSI in my case) and going to a Part 61 FBO where previous instructors just didn't give a damn. The Law of Primacy is a very powerful thing- whether its positive or negative.
Believe me, I would LOVE for my students to take checklists, and procedures, and all of that seriously...but unless I am their instructor from day one, its like pulling teeth. You have no idea how frustrating it is coming from a very standardized school like DCA (or FSI in my case) and going to a Part 61 FBO where previous instructors just didn't give a damn. The Law of Primacy is a very powerful thing- whether its positive or negative.
outside_looking_in
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Believe me, I would LOVE for my students to take checklists, and procedures, and all of that seriously...but unless I am their instructor from day one, its like pulling teeth. You have no idea how frustrating it is coming from a very standardized school like DCA (or FSI in my case) and going to a Part 61 FBO where previous instructors just didn't give a damn. The Law of Primacy is a very powerful thing- whether its positive or negative.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, does that mean that you can generally judge the quality of your training by how much detail it goes into? Basicly what I am saying is if a CFI takes you up and says "ok, now right, then left, good, good, now lets land" he is probably worthless, where as if you stress the importance of check lists and knowing the systems in your aircraft, then you are probably worth paying the money to.
Believe me, I would LOVE for my students to take checklists, and procedures, and all of that seriously...but unless I am their instructor from day one, its like pulling teeth. You have no idea how frustrating it is coming from a very standardized school like DCA (or FSI in my case) and going to a Part 61 FBO where previous instructors just didn't give a damn. The Law of Primacy is a very powerful thing- whether its positive or negative.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, does that mean that you can generally judge the quality of your training by how much detail it goes into? Basicly what I am saying is if a CFI takes you up and says "ok, now right, then left, good, good, now lets land" he is probably worthless, where as if you stress the importance of check lists and knowing the systems in your aircraft, then you are probably worth paying the money to.
tomek_vector
New Member
i just have to thow my 2¢ here, but it seems to me a lot of people are trying to figure out it it's the place or the 'man' ('woman') that makes the pilot. personally i'm hanging the rest of my life on that question.
so, about a year and a couple of months ago i spoke with a person working a lot of hours in the CRJ sim at one of the premiere regionals ('the' premiere regional? that flies a lot out of CVG :>
they had a class of newhires and at least one of them was an 'academy puke'. (guess some line people think very highly of 'pilot factory' products).
the said female required A LOT of extra time in the sim. most people don't ever have that luxury, yet she was not able to make any progress and what i heard is 'i don't know how she makes it around the patch'. she kept getting the extra time and was given the opportunity to take the checkride. busted it right away. no one was surprised.
and i've heared the stories of newhires from academy(ies) have a hard time at that place.
so if we're talking about the big picture here, what in hell are those procedures learned in a Piper good for in the CRJ? i'm not trying to be nasty here, but more and more i'm leaning toward the idea that ultimately it's the person that makes the pilot.
so, about a year and a couple of months ago i spoke with a person working a lot of hours in the CRJ sim at one of the premiere regionals ('the' premiere regional? that flies a lot out of CVG :>
they had a class of newhires and at least one of them was an 'academy puke'. (guess some line people think very highly of 'pilot factory' products).
the said female required A LOT of extra time in the sim. most people don't ever have that luxury, yet she was not able to make any progress and what i heard is 'i don't know how she makes it around the patch'. she kept getting the extra time and was given the opportunity to take the checkride. busted it right away. no one was surprised.
and i've heared the stories of newhires from academy(ies) have a hard time at that place.
so if we're talking about the big picture here, what in hell are those procedures learned in a Piper good for in the CRJ? i'm not trying to be nasty here, but more and more i'm leaning toward the idea that ultimately it's the person that makes the pilot.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Enroll them in one week of MikeDs Aviation Boot Camp to solve that problem.........
[/ QUOTE ]
Me, you and Mike Polay!
We can make a "go" of this!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. The DIs would be:
You
Me
Mike Polay
Dick Samuels
Gary Lopez (for the night stuff)
Kerry Roth (did he change his license plate yet?)
Art Draut
Fred Cone (a true Marine)
...and possibly a few others
[ QUOTE ]
Enroll them in one week of MikeDs Aviation Boot Camp to solve that problem.........
[/ QUOTE ]
Me, you and Mike Polay!
We can make a "go" of this!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. The DIs would be:
You
Me
Mike Polay
Dick Samuels
Gary Lopez (for the night stuff)
Kerry Roth (did he change his license plate yet?)
Art Draut
Fred Cone (a true Marine)
...and possibly a few others
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Enroll them in one week of MikeDs Aviation Boot Camp to solve that problem....
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooooh, how I'd love to. But with all the whining I have to put up with from most of them, I doubt they'd last a day.
Enroll them in one week of MikeDs Aviation Boot Camp to solve that problem....
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooooh, how I'd love to. But with all the whining I have to put up with from most of them, I doubt they'd last a day.
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
"what in hell are those procedures learned in a Piper good for in the CRJ?"
The procedures themselves are light years apart, but just like the Navy can figure out if a Boot Camp recruit is or is not cut out to work with a Nuclear Reactor, or live ammo, simply by the way they keep their locker and follow directions, a pilot that doesn't memorize all of their box items in a seminole, probably won't memorize all of the box items in an RJ, or a 727. The flip side being that a pilot who nails all of the box items, and has chair flown the lesson the day before they actually go out flying are showing everything that it takes to make it.
*EDIT*
Any monkey can move the yoke around, even me, and that is a far different thing than being a "Trainable" pilot. The biggest factor in training, in everything really, is attitude and commitment.
The procedures themselves are light years apart, but just like the Navy can figure out if a Boot Camp recruit is or is not cut out to work with a Nuclear Reactor, or live ammo, simply by the way they keep their locker and follow directions, a pilot that doesn't memorize all of their box items in a seminole, probably won't memorize all of the box items in an RJ, or a 727. The flip side being that a pilot who nails all of the box items, and has chair flown the lesson the day before they actually go out flying are showing everything that it takes to make it.
*EDIT*
Any monkey can move the yoke around, even me, and that is a far different thing than being a "Trainable" pilot. The biggest factor in training, in everything really, is attitude and commitment.
Maybe. I was always a very slow student while I was in college. It was a mixture of ERAU's emphasis on minutia and my own cynical attitude.
But when it came to learning procedures that I could relate to, it's pretty easy.
For example, we had to memorize the fuel system diagram of the Cessna 172. My brain says, "Psst! Hey Doug! This is a waste of brain cells! Look at the girl in the corner! Woo hoo!"
But on an airliner, we don't specifically have to memorize the fuel schematic, just have a working knowledge of it, and when it's broke know where to go for information on how to fix it.
Like on the Beech 1900, my company required me to know how the propeller governer functioned, how many jet pumps, how many engine-driven hi pressure fuel pumps, how much gas was in the collector tank, how the flapper valves work to equalize fuel, etc.
In retrospect, it really didn't matter one iota.
On the MD-88, I know there are two engines, Pratt&Whitney JT8's, they burn Jet-A out of three tanks and there are some electric and some engine-driven fuel pumps that correspond to annunciators which I'll look in the fuel or powerplant section of the PRM (Pilots Reference Manual) if one comes on during flight. That more or less concludes the engine/fuel lesson on the MD-88.
Oh, and I think it produces about 21,750 pounds of thrust per engine, but it's not testable material.
But when it came to learning procedures that I could relate to, it's pretty easy.
For example, we had to memorize the fuel system diagram of the Cessna 172. My brain says, "Psst! Hey Doug! This is a waste of brain cells! Look at the girl in the corner! Woo hoo!"
But on an airliner, we don't specifically have to memorize the fuel schematic, just have a working knowledge of it, and when it's broke know where to go for information on how to fix it.
Like on the Beech 1900, my company required me to know how the propeller governer functioned, how many jet pumps, how many engine-driven hi pressure fuel pumps, how much gas was in the collector tank, how the flapper valves work to equalize fuel, etc.
In retrospect, it really didn't matter one iota.
On the MD-88, I know there are two engines, Pratt&Whitney JT8's, they burn Jet-A out of three tanks and there are some electric and some engine-driven fuel pumps that correspond to annunciators which I'll look in the fuel or powerplant section of the PRM (Pilots Reference Manual) if one comes on during flight. That more or less concludes the engine/fuel lesson on the MD-88.
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
Doug-
I just pulled out the 727 Emergency Checklist for my last airline, and compared it to the Seminole's from Comair( yeah, I know, DCA) Different words, different systems, but....format wise, they are identical. If you can follow one, you can follow the other.
Doug, with your permission, I'd like to show you, and everyone else. I'll try to do a very low res. scan of both check lists. Seeing is believing.
Or, am I pushing this thread in the wrong direction?
I just pulled out the 727 Emergency Checklist for my last airline, and compared it to the Seminole's from Comair( yeah, I know, DCA) Different words, different systems, but....format wise, they are identical. If you can follow one, you can follow the other.
Doug, with your permission, I'd like to show you, and everyone else. I'll try to do a very low res. scan of both check lists. Seeing is believing.
Or, am I pushing this thread in the wrong direction?
Cleared_ILS_RWY_9L
New Member
Even the low res scans at 300 dpi are pushing 1 meg, I can use a text-bridge, but it won't look like the actual check list. I'm certainly not affraid to show my ignorance on with this stuff, what is the best way to make the scan more web/thread friendly?