Considering joining the profession for good, could use advice

[🦈💜]

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. You can say no, right?

No. You have to call out fatigued. The company (At least my company—see below) will run you 100% to the limits of 117. The FAA caved on a lot of little things between the NRPM and final rule, and they weakened more with LOIs, as they expected (somewhat reasonably) that labor would demand better conditions than the absolute limit.

But the reality is, through letter of interpretation, the FAA clarified that the PIC is concurring with the legality of the extension, not whether they're willing to do it, and that the company can force a pilot to call fatigued, and report why you felt entitled to reject the extension. They can also discipline accordingly, and that's considered a "labor" issue, not a legalities issue.

This includes withholding pay if they don't feel your reason is valid, or disciplining you for fatigue "abuse," though even the worst airlines are diligent about keeping the fatigue program non-punitive except in pay.

Haven't heard a lot of "worst mistake I've made in my life."

Airline types are a somewhat "career focused," "identity forward" breed, and most of them, in my experience, mostly care about making fat stacks rather than enjoying life. my advice to you is to read the other thread carefully. Read between the lines. If you want to talk, I'd be happy to go over what life looks like at a regional in this day and age.

An example of what I'm talking about: my FOs are being forced to upgrade to the left seat, switch airplanes, and change bases into sometimes horrible commutes, right at 1000 hours of 121 time. One of my favorite FOs lives in San Luis Obispo, commute to San Francisco, and loves the 175. He's now going to be forced to commute to a horrible reserve line with 12 or fewer days off per month in Detroit. That is not a fun commute, and he's going to be working a million legs a day in a broken down CRJ, with first officers who are brand new to the airlines.

when that transition is complete, those FO's will be seat locked in the CRJ for two years, and won't be able to get back to the 175. They can try working westward, but there is no guarantee that they won't be commuting and having four or a fewer days at home per month for years.

Many of them are leaving, for anywhere else. I even had one who told me that he was going to go back to flight instructing. People here on this forum will tell you that you need to suck it up, deal with it, pay your dues, etc. because they think in terms of "multi million dollar careers."

Pay close attention to the quality of life discussion in the last two pages of the "leaving the profession" thread, and people at majors sharing their schedule.

Keep in mind that when you're on a trip, you are not at home. those overnights look nice enough on paper, but delays squish them into nothing, half the time nothing is open when you get in, and the company isn't putting you there to have a good time, so they are not sympathetic. To them, you are in legally mandated stasis until your report time.

And it is a two way door, I can always go back to tech sales if I hate it or the employment market turns.

I actually did not realize that you were in sales… That changes the equation somewhat, but what I say, I really want you to hear: people tend to humble brag about this job, or make it sound better than it is. That's not to say they don't enjoy it, but you are not supposed to talk about the downsides—it's one of the many weird social conventions that you'll find.

Not sure that I'll end up full time instructing at all, as I've already got a backlog of teaching to do and no many hours left. Though I've always wanted to pretend like I'm retired and spend a few weeks flying in circles over a shopping mall in a glider. Might do that for a few weeks

if you do decide to drop things and come over, I fully support that decision, and I think you should get to it. For the record, I do not feel like I made a mistake in coming to the airlines, and I've had a great 10 years. I wouldn't trade the things I've seen up in Alaska, or getting to fly the mighty 175 for anything. And the good can be very good. But it comes at a cost, for sure, especially if you have a family or friends.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

...Go fly. Knowing you personally, your “hustle” is way harder than my hustle, you’ve done really shoot and impactful sh— in your current profession and you’re still more excited about that purple airplane.

I've learned a lot from that 1967 bucket of mostly non-corroded AN bolts. So, for the benefit of anyone reading this - you can totally make your own path in flying. You don't have to go work at a flight school, though it is probably faster. Buying an airplane with some friends that want to learn to fly works too. (I've taught at flight schools and clubs, an owned airplane is a very different experience). You too, can learn more than you ever wanted to know about light aircraft systems and avionics. Suggest buying one that isn't purple though, even if it costs a few bucks more.

It is definitely a hustle though. Always something to do, and never enough hours in the day.

 

[🦈💜]

100% QOL. And less stress. And doing something different. And some degree of schedule flexibility. I mostly don't care about having weekends or holidays off. But at least being able to ask for the days off I care about matters a lot to me.

I am 100% aligned with all these priorities. I'm going to be completely blunt: QOL at the airlines is likely not what you're expecting. And schedule flexibility is something that I, for one, don't have. I haven't even been able to make a doctors appointment or visit the dentist for a very long time, due to the waiting period in this area. There is zero schedule flexibility, in my seat. Getting days off that you care about likely will not be something you can do.

I had been told for years that this was different at the majors, that everything was better, and so on… But in the other thread, if you read it, you'll see that people are saying that it's not.

Type of flying? I'm not really in a position to choose right now, but 7 legs a day is not the end goal. I would be happy with a Florida base, or an east coast commute holding a line, or being reserve in Boston.

not impossible, but unlikely for several years. Make sure you understand in depth commuting entails, and what it looks like.

I would probably learn to live with anything else.

this job is best if you are young, single, and flexible. The more any of those things changes, the harder it gets. But it is doable. My first five years at my current shop were actually pretty awesome, including my first year as captain. Year seven took a turn, and I had to leave for medical recovery reasons. Now that I'm back, year 8/9 has been extremely rough.

Hoping the odds are okay of getting one of those three in the next 20 years.

Make sure you read between the lines with what people are saying, when they describe their jobs… for what it's worth, I wouldn't change any of my decisions up to this point. But knowing that the things that are tough for me are unlikely to get better is definitely a flashing neon sign.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I actually did not realize that you were in sales… That changes the equation somewhat, but what I say, I really want you to hear: people tend to humble brag about this job, or make it sound better than it is. That's not to say they don't enjoy it, but you are not supposed to talk about the downsides—it's one of the many weird social conventions that you'll find.

Probably does change things - I've already spent 20 years of my life living out of a suitcase in airports. Right now, I call on one shop 15 minutes away from me, but that won't last forever. In two months, I might be flying to Milwaukee and Tokyo every week for all I know.

I don't know that any of my friends in this business brag about it - they are pilots. They are much better at complaining about just about everything.

 

[Rosstafari]

You don’t have to give up teaching, especially on the side. Hell 100% of the job I do as a LCA exercises my CFI muscle.

+1. I’ve held my side gig as an adjunct in the aviation department at a local college. I’m usually able to keep a 24 hour turnaround for grades and Zoom sessions, and the rest is done via prerecorded lectures online. It’s been a really rewarding way to try to give back in the same way people pulled me up to where I am.

One of many options. There are a ton of organizations that need educators at all sorts of levels.

 

[///AMG]

people tend to humble brag about this job, or make it sound better than it is. That's not to say they don't enjoy it, but you are not supposed to talk about the downsides—it's one of the many weird social conventions that you'll find.

I think this is fair. I have a lot of online acquaintances, especially on the military side, who exhibit this behavior. Look at my (cherry picked) month of green slips. Which is fine, but it isn't necessarily a realistic representation of the typical month on the line. There are times it sucks for sure. But, it still is a lot better than digging ditches, and the pay and time off can be pretty great too. But I 100% agree that people exaggerate or generally try and make one good month sound like it is the standard. Such is the world now, with social media garbage fake lives penetrating our collective feeds.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think this is fair. I have a lot of online acquaintances, especially on the military side, who exhibit this behavior. Look at my (cherry picked) month of green slips. Which is fine, but it isn't necessarily a realistic representation of the typical month on the line. There are times it sucks for sure. But, it still is a lot better than digging ditches, and the pay and time off can be pretty great too. But I 100% agree that people exaggerate or generally try and make one good month sound like it is the standard. Such is the world now, with social media garbage fake lives penetrating our collective feeds.

“OH MY GOD LOOK AT HOW AMAZING I AM”

1) you’re going to Columbus,
2) on a red eye, and
3) you just made an illegal left turn (or whatever) in your reel, time to file an ASAP!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Do it!

You’ve been around here long enough that I trust you have an accurate picture of what this industry is like. Still beats any “regular” job. It sounds like you’ll particularly enjoy having zero responsibility to the company when you’re on off time. The CEO of the company could call me right now and I’ve got no responsibility to answer.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Do it!

You’ve been around here long enough that I trust you have an accurate picture of what this industry is like. Still beats any “regular” job. It sounds like you’ll particularly enjoy having zero responsibility to the company when you’re on off time. The CEO of the company could call me right now and I’ve got no responsibility to answer.

Yeah. With the note that you can’t exactly try airline jobs before you, er “buy” them, but failures to adapt are astonishingly rare, and @drunkenbeagle is well-read and ahead on avoiding them, it seems.

It is a different job if you commute, but that’s a “tomorrow” problem.

 

[SteveC]

As you sort through your options and continue to clarify your wish list, keep the non-121 flying jobs in mind. QOL factors kept me on the path that I took, and while I probably would have made a boat load more money than I did if I had taken a different route, I am extremely happy with how things worked for me. (More details available on request…)

 

[derg]

+1. I’ve held my side gig as an adjunct in the aviation department at a local college. I’m usually able to keep a 24 hour turnaround for grades and Zoom sessions, and the rest is done via prerecorded lectures online. It’s been a really rewarding way to try to give back in the same way people pulled me up to where I am.

One of many options. There are a ton of organizations that need educators at all sorts of levels.

Awesome!

Educators, or in some cases, like the internet…. Adults.

 

[derg]

I think this is fair. I have a lot of online acquaintances, especially on the military side, who exhibit this behavior. Look at my (cherry picked) month of green slips. Which is fine, but it isn't necessarily a realistic representation of the typical month on the line. There are times it sucks for sure. But, it still is a lot better than digging ditches, and the pay and time off can be pretty great too. But I 100% agree that people exaggerate or generally try and make one good month sound like it is the standard. Such is the world now, with social media garbage fake lives penetrating our collective feeds.

I have good months and better months. Because if you look at the total compensation, cash and prizes, if I took an equivalent-earning position anywhere else, I’d be on way more than statins. My cousin worked on Wall Street, make an incredible amount of money for his age and burned out because of the schedule and social responsibilities.

Work at 0700, off at 1800, then drinks with the execs to say in their good graces to be ‘top of mind’ to not only keep his job, but be available for the next higher position and constantly compete with his colleagues, usually home around 2200, snack/study/clean/pay bills/bed, up at 0500 to be at work at 0700, rinse, repeat. Holidays didn’t exist, weekends were pure exhaustion and missed with work social functions, then it started all over again.

Lived in Manhattan, huge rents, but if he lived anywhere else, he’d have to be up even earlier to make the train into town.

Easier in your 20’s when you’re trying to get ahead, would be absolutely murderous in my 50’s with children, a home and a dead liver.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I have good months and better months. Because if you look at the total compensation, cash and prizes, if I took an equivalent-earning position anywhere else, I’d be on way more than statins. My cousin worked on Wall Street, make an incredible amount of money for his age and burned out because of the schedule and social responsibilities.

Work at 0700, off at 1800, then drinks with the execs to say in their good graces to be ‘top of mind’ to not only keep his job, but be available for the next higher position and constantly compete with his colleagues, usually home around 2200, snack/study/clean/pay bills/bed, up at 0500 to be at work at 0700, rinse, repeat. Holidays didn’t exist, weekends were pure exhaustion and missed with work social functions, then it started all over again.

Lived in Manhattan, huge rents, but if he lived anywhere else, he’d have to be up even earlier to make the train into town.

Easier in your 20’s when you’re trying to get ahead, would be absolutely murderous in my 50’s with children, a home and a dead liver.

Our mutual office jobs are, to an extent, our own damn faults for putting our hands up (with some notes that being effective is nice too); being a line pilot is a wonderful thing.

 

[derg]

Our mutual office jobs are, to an extent, our own damn faults for putting our hands up (with some notes that being effective is nice too); being a line pilot is a wonderful thing.

In no way was that a metaphor for anything aviation related. That’s what his life was like on Wall Street before he resigned.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

In no way was that a metaphor for anything aviation related. That’s what his life was like on Wall Street before he resigned.

Ahh, comprendo. Well the latter bit after the semicolon is also still true, so