Poll: ALPA vs Teamsters...Which is better for Colgan?

[higney85]

Like PCL said, it's not a threat, it's merely passing on the general feeling of the pilot group over here. My personal opinion falls in with Ken's:merged seniority list with fence agreements that keeps movement going on both sides. I've got no desire to bid the Q. I don't want to commute. But at the same time, we've got to protect ourselves from a management team that loves to undermine the union at any turn. If given the chance they WILL move flying from Pinnacle to Colgan.

I never compared Colgan to Go Jets, and I never will. I realize that you guys didn't ask to be put in this stituation, but I think it's only fair for you to know what the underlying sentiment is over here. If it angers and upsets people to know, I'll be more than happy to just keep everyone in the dark and let you be blindsided.

:yeahthat:

 

[sherpa]

Actually, there is a big difference here. It's called a legally binding collective bargaining agreement that includes scope language. Pinnacle Corp is in violation of the scope language in the CBA.

Then your argument is that they are in violation of your mutually agreed to contract. The argument that PNCL is somehow morally obligated to make sure that the money they make while you work there must be invested to benefit you somehow is invalid. In the airline industry itself, it is like skywest pilots laying claim to ASA's flying because of the purchase.

I can understand the cba argument but the "hard earned money" argument has no validity and needs to be dropped.

 

[sherpa]

First off, I understand why you guys (Pncl Pilots) are upset. However, Colgan is not GoJets there are quite a few of us here that were here pre Pncl. We weren't asked to be bought by Pinnacle. We're just all trying to deal with the aftermath, just like you guys. I'm probably one of the biggest pro-ALPA pilots at Colgan, but I have to say that the manner of language and threatening behavior some of you are using on this thread is unnecessary. It's even starting to make my resolution for ALPA waver. We're a strong pilot group that came to Colgan for various reasons. I can definitely say that threats of stapling us to your list are not going to make us want to join your union.

The threat of staple is the true colors of the pncl group. If they wanted fences they wouldn't talk about staples and such.

If you want cooperation from colgan pilots, bulllying needs to stop.

 

[Cruise]

The threat of staple is the true colors of the pncl group. If they wanted fences they wouldn't talk about staples and such.

If you want cooperation from colgan pilots, bulllying needs to stop.

I disagree, completely! You need to start convincing your Q brethren that ALPA is the way to go, not the ITB. When we vote ALPA on property... the relationship will be formed to work together, not separately.

We need to show the PNCL pilot group we do want to be part of the team. Although, I do agree w/ you that bullying WON'T achieve desired results (not that anyone is bullying now).

 

[jynxyjoe]

Then your argument is that they are in violation of your mutually agreed to contract. The argument that PNCL is somehow morally obligated to make sure that the money they make while you work there must be invested to benefit you somehow is invalid. In the airline industry itself, it is like skywest pilots laying claim to ASA's flying because of the purchase.

I can understand the cba argument but the "hard earned money" argument has no validity and needs to be dropped.

They are not morally obligated, they are contractually obligated, and therefore legally obligated. If they want to buy back their stocks from northwest, giggy-up, they can and did. However, if they want to buy other aircraft, any of them, they let their pilots fly them. Its not terribly complicated. Instead they took the money, bought another company, then gave them the airplanes and have fought to keep colgan pilots off the seniority list. They did all that and still claim they don't have money for a contract. Go look up a list price for a dash 8 -400. Pncl management will be called all sorts of names for that very reason even if it doesn't have any explicit relationship to the current issue. I choose to use more colorful language since I did have to work under them for a while.

The moral argument comes in when you talk about management stalling a contract for 3 years now because they know the current administration will not allow a strike.

You are entering this conversation very late, not listening to the sides or researching, and then setting the thread back due to your lack of understanding. The very least you could do is start PM'ing people to understand the situation.

 

[surreal1221]

Serious question:

Why does it seem the organizing drive this time around isn't as heated and spun up as last year?

 

[Cruise]

Burn out....specifically, not letting it happen. We're going to try to blast it out over the course of a couple weeks, instead of a long, drawn out campaign. Keep the momentum high as the vote nears. At least that's the theory.

But, I know what you're talking about. I've tried to recruit people for the OC; and I've gotten some good responses. However, at the moment, it doesn't seem like much more than lip service. We'll see how it goes over the next week or two. Happy to have everyone's support for the vote, but we need people to participate as well. Time will tell who's in or out.

 

[surreal1221]

Gotcha, thanks for the info Cruise.

Hopefully that strategy will work out well for you guys.

Get them participating now so that they'll actually feel they have a vested interested in what THEIR union is involved in.

 

[BobDDuck]

Serious question:

Why does it seem the organizing drive this time around isn't as heated and spun up as last year?

A lot of people sunk a lot of time and money into that drive last time and the response was slightly apathetic. Looking in from the outside, the culture over there now is even FARTHER away from wanting a union then it was last time. Might not really be worth the time and effort for some people.

 

[sherpa]

They are not morally obligated, they are contractually obligated, and therefore legally obligated. If they want to buy back their stocks from northwest, giggy-up, they can and did. However, if they want to buy other aircraft, any of them, they let their pilots fly them. Its not terribly complicated. Instead they took the money, bought another company, then gave them the airplanes and have fought to keep colgan pilots off the seniority list. They did all that and still claim they don't have money for a contract. Go look up a list price for a dash 8 -400. Pncl management will be called all sorts of names for that very reason even if it doesn't have any explicit relationship to the current issue. I choose to use more colorful language since I did have to work under them for a while.

The moral argument comes in when you talk about management stalling a contract for 3 years now because they know the current administration will not allow a strike.

You are entering this conversation very late, not listening to the sides or researching, and then setting the thread back due to your lack of understanding. The very least you could do is start PM'ing people to understand the situation.

I have been there since the beginning of this conversation a year and a half ago. I wanted alpa last year and want it now.

But i just think the "hard earned money" argument is bogus. the contractual argument is right on point.

 

[surreal1221]

A lot of people sunk a lot of time and money into that drive last time and the response was slightly apathetic. Looking in from the outside, the culture over there now is even FARTHER away from wanting a union then it was last time. Might not really be worth the time and effort for some people.

Which is of course understandable.

Here is to hoping this year's drive turns out with a much better result. And if not, then well. . .tough choices will be made by some.

 

[kellwolf]

The threat of staple is the true colors of the pncl group. If they wanted fences they wouldn't talk about staples and such.

If you want cooperation from colgan pilots, bulllying needs to stop.

Who's bullying? I'm just relating facts as they are on the ground. Things were tense last year during the ALPA vote. It got worse when the vote failed. Fact. Things are tense again seeing as we STILL don't have a contract, our arbitration "win" was somehow turned into a "loss" and the company can STILL use you guys as a whipsaw. Fact. There are two option for unions over at Colgan: IBT and ALPA. Apparently, some people see the IBT option as a way to "fight back" against the PCL pilots. Fact. Truth is, the PCL guys have been trying to get a fence option rather than staple. Fact. Now, the ball is in Colgan's court. They can choose to work with us or against us. Taking the IBT route is not exactly saying "we're all on the same team." Fact.

I'm sorry if you feel a pilot group trying to stand up for their contractual rights is "bullying," but I'm just trying to relay what's going on. Like I said before, I'm personally NOT for a staple job, but there are a LOT of guys that feel they've been punched in the face metaphorically, and they're looking for pay back. It's getting harder and harder to bring those guys around.

 

[surreal1221]

I just hope the Colgan guys don't thumb their nose to ALPA, and all ALPA represented companies for a second time.

Hopefully the powers that be can provide some common sense infusion and the turn out will be successful for the pilot group, and for the overall brotherhood of ALPA.

 

[sherpa]

Who's bullying? I'm just relating facts as they are on the ground. Things were tense last year during the ALPA vote. It got worse when the vote failed. Fact. Things are tense again seeing as we STILL don't have a contract, our arbitration "win" was somehow turned into a "loss" and the company can STILL use you guys as a whipsaw. Fact. There are two option for unions over at Colgan: IBT and ALPA. Apparently, some people see the IBT option as a way to "fight back" against the PCL pilots. Fact. Truth is, the PCL guys have been trying to get a fence option rather than staple. Fact. Now, the ball is in Colgan's court. They can choose to work with us or against us. Taking the IBT route is not exactly saying "we're all on the same team." Fact.

I'm sorry if you feel a pilot group trying to stand up for their contractual rights is "bullying," but I'm just trying to relay what's going on. Like I said before, I'm personally NOT for a staple job, but there are a LOT of guys that feel they've been punched in the face metaphorically, and they're looking for pay back. It's getting harder and harder to bring those guys around.

Fact: Pinnacle pilots are on this very message board talking about stapling Colgan pilots. Fact: If the votes of the people who left the company to work at the major's votes had been counted we would in fact be ALPA represented right now
Fact: nobody snubbed their noses at ALPA. This was a tight knit company and some of the more senior fuys didn't feel the need for an outside bargaining agent to deal with the Colgans.
Fact: Ever since last year PNCL pilots were bragging about 34seat scope for colgan with fences.
Fact: Be encouraging, positive and informative and you will get support from the Colgan pilot group. If you keep up the current sentiment you will see them on the defense and you can thank yourselves for that.
Fact: Nobody is scared of you

 

[Rocketman99]

Fact: The only guys who've really been shafted by all this is the Pinnacle pilot group.
Fact: If we don't vote in ALPA, then we deserve whatever we're gonna get.

I 100% sympathize with the PCL guys. They have every right to be angry and upset. For the most part, pretty much everything has been a good deal for us. It shouldn't be this way.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Fact: Pinnacle pilots are on this very message board talking about stapling Colgan pilots. Fact: If the votes of the people who left the company to work at the major's votes had been counted we would in fact be ALPA represented right now
Fact: nobody snubbed their noses at ALPA. This was a tight knit company and some of the more senior fuys didn't feel the need for an outside bargaining agent to deal with the Colgans.
Fact: Ever since last year PNCL pilots were bragging about 34seat scope for colgan with fences.
Fact: Be encouraging, positive and informative and you will get support from the Colgan pilot group. If you keep up the current sentiment you will see them on the defense and you can thank yourselves for that.
Fact: Nobody is scared of you

Fact: Because they talk about a possibility of stapling, that is not in itself bullying. You could be stapled, that is a .... fact. There are historic precedences for that to happen. From the pilots at MEM I've talked to, the overwhelming majority do not want you stapled, because they don't think its right.

Fact: even if everyone who left the company for majors or other regionals vote were counted, it would not matter, the majority of pilots there at the time said no. I knew some of the no voters and am friends with most of them to this day. Ask Seggy, he gives me #### every time for it... including today.

Fact: A majority of pilots either didn't care to vote or refused to vote for ALPA. It doesn't get any more plain a snub than that. 49.9% of us VOTERS did the right thing, that doesn't mean the other 51% of the pilots get any quarter. In fact it shows how DIVIDED a pilot group the CJC'ers were last year and time will tell the reality of their comradeship now. I'm willing to lay bets that if ALPA gets in, it will be on the back of a lot of teamster votes.

Fact: the pncl negotiating group were requesting date of hire with 24 month fences; the exact same thing they are asking for this time. They are openly bewildered at your pilot groups no vote. Hilariously enough, I actually talked to one of them today who was on the negotiating group last year. If you wanna blame the no vote on internet rumors, fine. I don't understand why you would, the MEC said openly to anyone that was listening date of hire with 24 month fences. People didn't care to listen, folks were convinced they could get in and get out without having to touch the issue.

Fact: Pinnacle pilots aren't there to hold your hand and give you a pep talk. Grown ups don't need a pat on the back to do the right thing.

Fact: Some CJC pilots were absolutely scared of the integration. Thats why they ducked their heads in the sand. I think it's unlikely that has gone away entirely as you so state.

 

[kellwolf]

Fact: Pinnacle pilots are on this very message board talking about stapling Colgan pilots.

And how many of those pilots are actually FOR that staple job? I've already said TWICE I'm not. Ken's said he's not. We're just telling you what's going on with the pilot group in general. Don't shoot the F'n messenger. If you don't like, put your head back in the sand.

Fact: nobody snubbed their noses at ALPA. This was a tight knit company and some of the more senior fuys didn't feel the need for an outside bargaining agent to deal with the Colgans.

If the company was still run by the Colgans, I could see that. I was, frankly, shocked the sold the company. Maybe it was just a poor education campaign, but to the rest of us, it appeared that 49% of the Colgan group said "no."

Fact: Ever since last year PNCL pilots were bragging about 34seat scope for colgan with fences.

I haven't heard any "bragging." Heck, I don't even know what the fence agreements the MEC was working on are. Anyone that pretended to know otherwise was blustering unless they were a member of the PCL MEC. And I can tell you from experience, those guys don't talk unless it's been triple checked.

Fact: Be encouraging, positive and informative and you will get support from the Colgan pilot group. If you keep up the current sentiment you will see them on the defense and you can thank yourselves for that.
Fact: Nobody is scared of you

<sigh> No one is trying to scare you. Maybe I should repeat that....no one is trying to scare you. We're trying to let you know what is going on with the Pinnacle pilot group and the general consensus of the pilots over here. We are, in fact, attempting to be INFORMATIVE, just as you suggest. If you don't like the information we're sending, that's not our problem. I'm not gonna blow sunshine to make people feel better. Not my style. Myself and my fellow ALPA volunteer over there have been attempting to get information out letting you guys now exactly how vital this vote at Colgan could be. I'd really like to see ALPA voted in over there so both groups can finally start working together to solve this problem (problem being the elephant in the room of management whipsawing us against each other). But, apparently, the information I was peddling was seen as intimidating and bullying. That's not what was intended. It wasn't a "vote for ALPA or we're gonna staple your asses." It was a "Look, this is what's going on with the 9E side and how people feel."

 

[Cruise]

Kellwolf, I hear ya and I appreciate your insight into PCL ALPA issues. I've been trying to pass that information on to as many CJC people I can. It's completely bewildering to me some of the nonsense that is steering people away from ALPA.

As I've said before, most of the guys who don't want ALPA can't come up with a single GOOD reason. Oh sure, some have reasons....but, they're far from good. And most just don't have any reason.

I agree, you and the others haven't been bullying....and that's a good thing. I don't think that strategy would work very well, considering some of the fears amongst the IBT people. I just heard a new one today......if we have IBT instead of ALPA, we will be better able to negotiate list integration. Um hello???? If we're both ALPA, we'd be working from the same rules, easy/ open lines of communication on what's happening at each other's company, etc.....

It makes my head spin/ blood boil. It's so obvious ALPA is the right fit for us (and any airline, for that matter), but I can't take the ALPA stick and hit IBT'ers over the head....as much as I might like to do so. :laff:

 

[derg]

Now I've got to pick on you a little as a warm introduction to jetcareers and I've also had a little cake and champagne.

Fact: Pinnacle pilots are on this very message board talking about stapling Colgan pilots.

I really haven't seen any (much?) of that at all. Please don't think that anything you read on the internet is anything more than words on the internet. Most people want what's best for both groups, usually the folks with the loudest, most voracious opinions are in the minority. Applies at my DALPA forums, I'm sure it applies here at JC as well.

Fact: nobody snubbed their noses at ALPA. This was a tight knit company and some of the more senior fuys didn't feel the need for an outside bargaining agent to deal with the Colgans.

Actually an opinion!

Fact: Ever since last year PNCL pilots were bragging about 34seat scope for colgan with fences.

See point #1 plz.

Fact: Be encouraging, positive and informative and you will get support from the Colgan pilot group. If you keep up the current sentiment you will see them on the defense and you can thank yourselves for that.

Actually an opinion too.

Fact: Nobody is scared of you

I am! Have you seen some of these guys? Sca-HAR-EE!

Against, I'm just messin' with ya man. Welcome to JC.

 

[sherpa]

Fact: even if everyone who left the company for majors or other regionals vote were counted, it would not matter, the majority of pilots there at the time said no. I knew some of the no voters and am friends with most of them to this day. Ask Seggy, he gives me #### every time for it... including today.

no, these people voted but their votes were pulled because they left before the end of the election. Had their votes been counted ALPA would have won.



Anyone who knows me knows i am very pro alpa. I was very well known for it last year before, during and after the drive. Even before pinnacle purchased Colgan i was very pro Alpa. I realize the need for unity in the industry and also personal insurance for my career.

Many pilots here that have followed the thing from the beginning feel that more than anything else we need protection from pinnacle alpa. if that means joining alpa then that is what they'll do. if that means ibt then that will prevail. It def doesn't help the cause that some guys over there who have friends here are telling them that soon all the colgan pilots will be FO's for them.