Poll: ALPA vs Teamsters...Which is better for Colgan?

[derg]

Looks like it's about a month to the 1 year mark from the last vote. Please post your educated opinions.

In my personal opinion, it's like this.

The same people who are going to form your leadership and volunteer network under ALPA are going to be the same ones that will do so under the Teamsters.

Whatever the brand name is, the ones that bitch and moan and those that volunteer will do so under either brand, per se.

However, ALPA has a deeper bank of pilot-specific resources and is a pilot's union. Teamsters has a broad reach, but their resources aren't 100% pilot-oriented.

Choose what you will. You NEED legally-binding representation in this industry for both the good times and the bad times.

Personally? I'd choose ALPA. Kind of the same way that I'd call "Jethro's Air Conditioning" to work on my AC units rather than "Diddley's Air Conditioning, Lawn Service, Catering and Bait 'n Tackle" for the same job.

JMHO.

 

[Velocipede]

PCL hit the nail on the head, so I won't repeat his comments. Suffice it to say, when it comes to REPRESENTATIONAL issues for pilots, IBT leaves a lot to be desired. You can't tell the quality of a contract simply by looking at pay rates.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I will say this much though- I expect the ALPA vote to be a "yes" across the board.

From what I'm hearing, I think you're going to be very disappointed. It was forgiven the first time around. I don't know how much of a forgiving mood the PCL pilots will be in this time around, especially when scope is the only remaining stumbling block for a new contract.

 

[kellwolf]

From what I'm hearing, I think you're going to be very disappointed. It was forgiven the first time around. I don't know how much of a forgiving mood the PCL pilots will be in this time around, especially when scope is the only remaining stumbling block for a new contract.

I have to agree here. If Colgan either fails to vote in a union or goes with the Teamsters over ALPA, I think it might get ugly. Even during the last drive there were a few people rallying behind the "staple 'em!" cry. This time around, if the vote fails or if we fell stabbed in the back by the 9L guys, that cry might go from mediocre to deafening. We already see the growth at Pinnacle corp leaning the Q400's way, and a LOT of guys (myself included) weren't happy that those airplanes were bought with money from flying we did. To see 9E get the shaft on growth would just be a spit in our eye. Colgan pilots voting in Teamsters or no union at all would throw a gauntlet no one really wants to see thrown. Honestly, you'd likely see a strike before you saw a fair and balanced seniority list integration if that were to happen.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I have to agree here. If Colgan either fails to vote in a union or goes with the Teamsters over ALPA, I think it might get ugly. Even during the last drive there were a few people rallying behind the "staple 'em!" cry. This time around, if the vote fails or if we fell stabbed in the back by the 9L guys, that cry might go from mediocre to deafening. We already see the growth at Pinnacle corp leaning the Q400's way, and a LOT of guys (myself included) weren't happy that those airplanes were bought with money from flying we did. To see 9E get the shaft on growth would just be a spit in our eye. Colgan pilots voting in Teamsters or no union at all would throw a gauntlet no one really wants to see thrown. Honestly, you'd likely see a strike before you saw a fair and balanced seniority list integration if that were to happen.

Hey if the Q guys vote teamsters but more people vote for ALPA doesn't that mean ALPA will still be on property? In other words, even if they vote teamsters that will be counted toward the alpa vote if alpa is in the majority?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hey if the Q guys vote teamsters but more people vote for ALPA doesn't that mean ALPA will still be on property? In other words, even if they vote teamsters that will be counted toward the alpa vote if alpa is in the majority?

Correct. I don't think that ALPA will receive the majority, however. Too many CJC pilots are falling for the IBT talking points.

 

[kellwolf]

Here's the sad irony from what I hear. The IBT guys are saying vote IBT so the PCL guys don't screw you. Truth is, voting ALPA would be safer in that regards. Going with the Teamsters is like saying you're dead set against working with PCL's union, so now we're more likely to call for the stapler. Funny how that doesn't seem to get across, though.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

so now we're more likely to call for the stapler

In my opinion, even the stapler would be too generous if they vote against ALPA again. I would say scope them to 19 seats like the Mesaba MEC did to Big Sky. That was a very similar situation. Captain Wychor, the MEC Chair at MSA, reached out to the Big Sky pilots and wanted to help them bring ALPA on the property. They rejected him because they didn't trust ALPA to be fair to both sides (sound familiar?), and they went with another union. Wychor didn't take kindly to the rejection and responded by negotiating 19-seat scope that ended up killing Big Sky. Had they accepted Wychor's help and brought ALPA on the property, they would probably have seniority numbers at XJ right now and be flying stretch RJs.

The PCL MEC should consider the same thing if the CJC pilots reject ALPA again. That would be the death knell of Colgan, and much deserved if they turn their backs on their PCL brothers again.

 

[surreal1221]

Man. . .this won't end good for someone.

 

[sherpa]

This is friggin retarded. PNCL corp used their earnings to buy another company. If Microsoft had been successful in buying YAHOO, could microsoft employees lay claim to that company? NO. There is no difference here.

Pinnacle pilots work for the wages and work rules they agreed to. Claim to what the company does with its earnings is nowhere stated in the contract that your pilots agreed to work under. Just like I have no claim to what the Colgans do with the money they made off my hard work. I agreed to work at their company for the wages they offered.

That being said, I do support ALPA and think it is the best choice for the Colgan Pilots. But this bullying talk and threats are going to cause no feelings of "brother hood" between the two pilot groups. And make no mistake, you guys would have taken the Q's already if you could. the simple fact is that is, you couldn't and there fore you haven't.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If Microsoft had been successful in buying YAHOO, could microsoft employees lay claim to that company? NO. There is no difference here.

Actually, there is a big difference here. It's called a legally binding collective bargaining agreement that includes scope language. Pinnacle Corp is in violation of the scope language in the CBA.

 

[kellwolf]

Funny, we've got a piece of paper that says "all flying done by Pinnacle Airlines, Inc (or a company IN POSSESSION OF PINNACLE AIRLINES, INC) will be done by pilots on the Pinnacle Airlines, Inc seniority list." Did Yahoo have that? When that money was acquired (Dec of 06), Pinnacle Airlines Inc was the sole airline under the corp banner. The reason we were the sole airline is b/c we wouldn't cave on scope for management to create a non-union airline. They needed concessions in order to get that non-union airline. Enter Colgan, an already existing non-union carrier. For some reason, since Colgan already existed, management now felt they didn't need the concessions they'd been insisting on for several years. When put in front of an arbitrator, he came to the conclusion that they were, in fact, in violation of the above part of our contract. Unfortunately, a month or two later, he changed his decision. He said they were still in violation, but didn't have to do anything about it. We're still trying to get clarification on what he meant by his decision.

Like PCL_128 said, we're operating in a realm of BIG differences b/w the Microsoft/Yahoo example and Pinnacle/Colgan.

 

[higney85]

All I am saying is if the majority of the CJC vote ALPA down I cannot see how a 99.39% group will bring them open arms in this scope arrangement, especially when the colgan side is bleeding money. This financial arrangement is NOT the pilot's fault, yet voting in ALPA is the first step in a successful and safer future at CJC under PNCL Corp. Not my business, but its up to the colgan folks to sit down and look at the big picture. The "staple" wispers will be roars if CJC decides they want to "do there own thing".


Nothing personal here. My personal views would desire ALPA on both properties but establish fence agreements.

 

[greaper007]

First off, I understand why you guys (Pncl Pilots) are upset. However, Colgan is not GoJets there are quite a few of us here that were here pre Pncl. We weren't asked to be bought by Pinnacle. We're just all trying to deal with the aftermath, just like you guys. I'm probably one of the biggest pro-ALPA pilots at Colgan, but I have to say that the manner of language and threatening behavior some of you are using on this thread is unnecessary. It's even starting to make my resolution for ALPA waver. We're a strong pilot group that came to Colgan for various reasons. I can definitely say that threats of stapling us to your list are not going to make us want to join your union.

 

[L-16B]

First off, I understand why you guys (Pncl Pilots) are upset. However, Colgan is not GoJets there are quite a few of us here that were here pre Pncl. We weren't asked to be bought by Pinnacle. We're just all trying to deal with the aftermath, just like you guys. I'm probably one of the biggest pro-ALPA pilots at Colgan, but I have to say that the manner of language and threatening behavior some of you are using on this thread is unnecessary. It's even starting to make my resolution for ALPA waver. We're a strong pilot group that came to Colgan for various reasons. I can definitely say that threats of stapling us to your list are not going to make us want to join your union.

I'll agree with that. I'm post Pncl, but was hired on the Saab (it's what I wanted). Then I got colganed by a phone call saying that they changed the equipment on me to the Q. All I wanted was a turboprop operator out of Houston, but it looks like that didnt happen. Regardless, I want Alpa over Teamsters, but I don't think that Pinnacle pilots should feel stabbed in the back if for some reason Colgan voted Teamsters over Alpa. They should feel dissapointed if need be, but shouldnt take it so personal as it wasn't their decision. If you want to know what stabbed in the back is, please call my uncle who flew for TWA and he will tell you all about Alpa. Let me remind you again, I support Alpa at Colgan.

 

[Cruise]

I'm also pre-PNCL....and a very ardent ALPA supporter. The problem I see here is most, if not all, CJC pilots that participate on JC are also ALPA supporters. So, the message from the PNCL pilots is not reaching the proper audience.

Is it possible for people from the PNCL MEC to make a trip to EWR to sway the Teamster people over there? I know there is going to be an education campaign in EWR at the end of the month. It's time to educate not threaten. Bullying will never work. EWR is full of many of the very senior Captains and noob FO's who don't know any better. We need to start preaching to the people who are against us....not WITH US!

To me it's obvious, ALPA is the only real option! HOWEVER, any union is better than the one we have now! Let's keep that in mind, as well.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

First off, I understand why you guys (Pncl Pilots) are upset. However, Colgan is not GoJets there are quite a few of us here that were here pre Pncl. We weren't asked to be bought by Pinnacle. We're just all trying to deal with the aftermath, just like you guys. I'm probably one of the biggest pro-ALPA pilots at Colgan, but I have to say that the manner of language and threatening behavior some of you are using on this thread is unnecessary. It's even starting to make my resolution for ALPA waver. We're a strong pilot group that came to Colgan for various reasons. I can definitely say that threats of stapling us to your list are not going to make us want to join your union.

It's not a threat, it's merely a passing along of mindset that most PCL pilots have. We had a very small number of pilots that were already calling for stapling right after the purchase happened, when I was still on the MEC. I did everything I could to stamp that out and encourage everyone that an ALPA drive was starting. After the ALPA drive failed, sentiments soured even more, and even a couple of MEC members were pretty pissed off. If an ALPA drive fails again, I'm just letting you know that it won't be pretty. It's not a threat at all, just a statement of fact.

If you want to know what stabbed in the back is, please call my uncle who flew for TWA and he will tell you all about Alpa.

ALPA never stabbed your uncle in the back. TWA ALPA did everything they could for him and the rest of the TWA pilots, and he needs to place blame where blame is due: the APA and AMR Corp.

Is it possible for people from the PNCL MEC to make a trip to EWR to sway the Teamster people over there?

I'm sure that the MEC Chairman would be happy to do that. Seggy has his contact info and could probably set something up.

 

[higney85]

Tell ya what... I will get in touch with my MEC chair and see whats going on with this colgan drive. I do know there is alot going on just on the 9E side.

 

[Cruise]

We have a conference call later today. I know S.E. has been on them in the past.....maybe he'll be on today. Regardless, I will bring this up during the call. Hopefully we can get something going to educate the EWR population.

 

[kellwolf]

Like PCL said, it's not a threat, it's merely passing on the general feeling of the pilot group over here. My personal opinion falls in with Ken's:merged seniority list with fence agreements that keeps movement going on both sides. I've got no desire to bid the Q. I don't want to commute. But at the same time, we've got to protect ourselves from a management team that loves to undermine the union at any turn. If given the chance they WILL move flying from Pinnacle to Colgan.

I never compared Colgan to Go Jets, and I never will. I realize that you guys didn't ask to be put in this stituation, but I think it's only fair for you to know what the underlying sentiment is over here. If it angers and upsets people to know, I'll be more than happy to just keep everyone in the dark and let you be blindsided.