Planes crash...(Butte, MT PC-12)

Boris Badenov said:
Exactly. It's not so much that violating FARs is excusable (the rules exist for a reason, thank you Fundamentals of Instructing), but that the attitude of "if you break an FAR your plane immediately explodes" prevents actually exploring the real reason for accidents. No one is suggesting that breaking the rules is right, or smart, or even "necessary at times", but the notion that an accident's cause can be simply attributed to a "non-compliance attitude" based on something most likely totally unrelated to the crash prevents us from intelligently discussing what might have actually gone wrong. I adhere to the strict letter of the law, both because I have a little humility about my knowledge, and because I like continued employment. But I don't imagine that once someone takes off a pound overgross or goes a knot over Vne, their accident report should simply read "Broke teh rulez!"
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I don't see the FAA/NTSB stopping their investigation with a conclusion of "overloaded aircraft". I am sure they will be able to dig up all sorts of stuff on the pilot along with all sorts of other contributing factors. I wouldn't be surprised if ice was a problem either. I would be surprised if they discovered that the aircraft failed to work as designed in any way. If you have ever read accident reports, aircraft do fail, but those events are few and far between.
 
Looking through the pictures linked above, one of the gentlemen pictured lost 2 daughters (and associated sons'-in-law), and 5 grandchildren. Seriously, this is a sad accident on so many levels.

Hopefully, somebody out there will learn something from this tragedy.
 
I have heard that this is a case of the pliot having a heart attack, and one of the pax trying to land the aircraft.
 
Timbuff10 said:
I don't see the FAA/NTSB stopping their investigation with a conclusion of "overloaded aircraft". I am sure they will be able to dig up all sorts of stuff on the pilot along with all sorts of other contributing factors. I wouldn't be surprised if ice was a problem either. I would be surprised if they discovered that the aircraft failed to work as designed in any way. If you have ever read accident reports, aircraft do fail, but those events are few and far between.
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The PC-12 is a powerful airplane and has a great glide ratio. The thing has a very slow approach speed and a low stall speed for its size. I've always been amazed when I get told to slow way down for spacing due to a PC-12 ahead of me, its a very docile wing.

Talking about FAR's it seems it just gives the authorities an out when they can't determine what really happened. I think this crash will be one of those deals, however one of the investigators is reported to have said they were now considering icing. I also read that the plane was turning "steeply" before it dove to the ground, (this from an "eye witness")
Possible stall/spin on the turn to final? Who knows. At any rate, very sad.

R.I.P. to all.....


BP244
 
Schinpop said:
Not sure how supplemental O2 works on the PC-12, but you would have to be able to supply O2 to each pax in the event of de-pressurization. I doubt that there are 20 masks.
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There are 9 in the back, if you count the one in the lav, which is not easy to access.

According to flightaware, the airplane was above FL250 for quite a while.
 
cj4pilot said:
I have heard that this is a case of the pliot having a heart attack, and one of the pax trying to land the aircraft.
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If that didn't come from ATC I don't see how they could ever figure it out since there is probably not much left to look at...... If that's the reason the plane was diverting the mystery is going to come together very quickly.



hmmmm....... and the plane was loaded with doctors.....
 
My God....3 entire families wiped out?! So young, so tragic. I can't even imagine what the parents(grandparents) are going through. Just awful. :(
RIP
 
Baronpilot244 said:
I also read that the plane was turning "steeply" before it dove to the ground, (this from an "eye witness")
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I'm pretty sure this eye witness account comes from a 14 year old. I'm not trying to flamebate, but I wouldn't trust that account. He's the only one who gave that description. According to him, he thought the pilot was doing "acrobatics" and the left wing was all the way down pointing to the ground.
 
dcramer16 said:
I'm pretty sure this eye witness account comes from a 14 year old. I'm not trying to flamebate, but I wouldn't trust that account. He's the only one who gave that description. According to him, he thought the pilot was doing "acrobatics" and the left wing was all the way down pointing to the ground.
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Sounds like the typical uneducated person's description of a stall/spin accident.
 
Baronpilot244 said:
however one of the investigators is reported to have said they were now considering icing.
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It looks like they are turning there attention to icing. I was outside all day, and it didn't seem to me like the kind of day for picking up ice. Of course you can't really tell unless you are in a plane. But Sunday around Butte here was actually a pretty nice day.
 
dcramer16 said:
It looks like they are turning their (fixed it for ya) attention to icing. I was outside all day, and it didn't seem to me like the kind of day for picking up ice. Of course you can't really tell unless you are in a plane. But Sunday around Butte here was actually a pretty nice day.
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If I understand correctly, the only mention of ice came from a former NTSB person (or FAA, not sure) who was commenting for one of the news shows. I don't think that there has been any official word that they are turning their attention that direction, other than it being one of many factors that the investigators will check. I suppose, though, that if by "they" you mean the idle news speculators you would have a point. :)
 
I thought it was initially reported that there were two pilots on board. If it were a heart attack, that would explain the diversion, but if the pax are trying to land the thing, then it doesn't sound like a second crew/pilot was on the aircraft.

I always thought there should be a regulation that requires two pilots whenever pax are being flown around on something larger than a light single or twin. Not sure how the rule could be written, but maybe anything with more than 6 seats that has passengers on board should fall under the rule. I know there was a King Air a few years back that was flying a full load of people and it crashed and killed all on board when the pilot had a heart attack somewhere outside of Vegas. There was one recently south of the Denver that crashed due to a heart attack, but I think the pilot may have been the only one one board.

Either way, a rule like that would only be good. Even though it would increase the costs slightly for some operators it would also create jobs too, and that is the cool thing to do right now right? A rule that could save some lives, and create entry level pilot jobs.
 
SteveC said:
If I understand correctly, the only mention of ice came from a former NTSB person (or FAA, not sure) who was commenting for one of the news shows. I don't think that there has been any official word that they are turning their attention that direction, other than it being one of many factors that the investigators will check. I suppose, though, that if by "they" you mean the idle news speculators you would have a point. :)
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And you are correct about that. It was a former NTSB person. I stand corrected. Thanks.
 
Timbuff10 said:
How do you figure that? I mean if it were on approach, it is likely that no one outside the aircraft will ever know.
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I've read at least one accident report in which an autopsy pointed pretty clearly towards a heart attack. And this was a "smoking hole" type of accident. Those doctors are no dummies. I'll see if I can find it on the ntsb site.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I've read at least one accident report in which an autopsy pointed pretty clearly towards a heart attack. And this was a "smoking hole" type of accident. Those doctors are no dummies. I'll see if I can find it on the ntsb site.
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A heart attack leaves some kind of marker (proteins??) in the system. It's apparently pretty easy to identify.
 
Timbuff10 said:
How do you figure that? I mean if it were on approach, it is likely that no one outside the aircraft will ever know.

If it were a heart attack, that would explain the diversion
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I was just thinking, if the diversion was caused by a heart attack, ATC would have been notified.
 
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