Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
-mini
Turbine Duke = wet dream.
-mini
Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestions?
- Thread starter WestIndian425
- Start date
kiloalpha
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
Well I'm sure any twin can start to roll over early. When we were doing Vmc training, we would always do "zero-thrust" since our planes don't have unfeathering pumps. (You can get them installed, like on Bob Hoover's airplane.) So I really wouldn't be able to tell you if I could get it to roll over. It would always stall out at 6,000ft when we did them.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
What would be harder... finding a DE or learning how to taxi the Commander?
What would be harder... finding a DE or learning how to taxi the Commander?
kiloalpha
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
That's pretty tough.... I guess if the student can taxi a Diamond they may be able to taxi the Commander.What would be harder... finding a DE or learning how to taxi the Commander?
kiloalpha
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
At least on the AC50, the nose steering is controlled by actuating the brake valves, so not only are you using differential braking, but the nose wheel will turn in the direction you brake. It's power nose castering steering. Really weird and really sensitive (just "curl" the toes to turn) but after a while you get used to it and it becomes completely natural. Just be prepared to be gawked at by the line guys if you are taxiing for the first time.
At least on the AC50, the nose steering is controlled by actuating the brake valves, so not only are you using differential braking, but the nose wheel will turn in the direction you brake. It's power nose castering steering. Really weird and really sensitive (just "curl" the toes to turn) but after a while you get used to it and it becomes completely natural. Just be prepared to be gawked at by the line guys if you are taxiing for the first time.
CK
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
It is a very unique airplane. I demoed one last month and we may end up buying it. The cabin feels much larger than a 400 series. When my boss stuck his head inside his first remarks were about how he could dance down the isle! However, it is underpowered and very rare. Fuji/Commander knew they were not going to make many of the piston version so they used all generic parts. The people I have talked to have said parts are not a problem. From what I have seen, it is the best piston twin for the money. The 700/710 were designed as a proof of concept for a turbine version of the airframe that was never built, so the airframe is very solid. The 710 uses the Lycoming 541's which I have never been a big fan of.
The nosewheel steering is controlled through the top of the rudder pedals. The first few centimeters of movement steers the nosewheel, and the rest controls the brakes. It takes a while to get used to. I've taught quite a few students in the 560, and have always found that once they can taxi the plane well, they can also fly the plane well.
I have always loved the Duke. It has the 380hp Lycoming 541s, but it does not have enough ground clearance to have a prop big enough to turn that into power.
Alex.
It is a very unique airplane. I demoed one last month and we may end up buying it. The cabin feels much larger than a 400 series. When my boss stuck his head inside his first remarks were about how he could dance down the isle! However, it is underpowered and very rare. Fuji/Commander knew they were not going to make many of the piston version so they used all generic parts. The people I have talked to have said parts are not a problem. From what I have seen, it is the best piston twin for the money. The 700/710 were designed as a proof of concept for a turbine version of the airframe that was never built, so the airframe is very solid. The 710 uses the Lycoming 541's which I have never been a big fan of.
The nosewheel steering is controlled through the top of the rudder pedals. The first few centimeters of movement steers the nosewheel, and the rest controls the brakes. It takes a while to get used to. I've taught quite a few students in the 560, and have always found that once they can taxi the plane well, they can also fly the plane well.
I have always loved the Duke. It has the 380hp Lycoming 541s, but it does not have enough ground clearance to have a prop big enough to turn that into power.
Alex.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
Except for those pesky fueling caps that Beech designed. The same could be said about the Kingair's though, so I won't hold that against the Duke. I've seen a few turbine Duke's, but I'd imagine the only way its cost effective is if you 1) Own a Duke with engines that need overhauled, or 2) Someone gives you a Duke with engines that need overhauled.
Except for those pesky fueling caps that Beech designed. The same could be said about the Kingair's though, so I won't hold that against the Duke. I've seen a few turbine Duke's, but I'd imagine the only way its cost effective is if you 1) Own a Duke with engines that need overhauled, or 2) Someone gives you a Duke with engines that need overhauled.
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
To me it seems the easiest way to go about this would be to send your student to a local flight school and have him do his multi-engine add on in a seminole or similar trainer. After he gets the license and has performed the required maneuvers in a easier aircraft transition him to whatever airplane he would buy, and the only training you would technically have to do would be to meet the insurance mins. Plus you would probably save some money training in a seminole at 200$ an hour vs. whatever you buy and considerably more, its also going to take more time for the rating in a higer performance more technical aircraft. Remember you don't have an hour requirement to sign off for the checkride I've seen multi-engine add ons done in as little as 8 hours.
To me it seems the easiest way to go about this would be to send your student to a local flight school and have him do his multi-engine add on in a seminole or similar trainer. After he gets the license and has performed the required maneuvers in a easier aircraft transition him to whatever airplane he would buy, and the only training you would technically have to do would be to meet the insurance mins. Plus you would probably save some money training in a seminole at 200$ an hour vs. whatever you buy and considerably more, its also going to take more time for the rating in a higer performance more technical aircraft. Remember you don't have an hour requirement to sign off for the checkride I've seen multi-engine add ons done in as little as 8 hours.
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
The Duke is a real sweet bird, but can be a real pain and VERY expensive on maintenance. They had a lot of corrosion problems in the belly around the outflow valves, and there were also corrosion problems as I recall with the vertical stab, I think. Both very expensive and could well ruin your day. There may also be wing spar checks that are $$. Duke insurance will eat you alive without a good bit of multi time and they'll want at least 100 hours in the plane with an instructor before they even consider writing a policy.
The engines eat turbochargers unless handled VERY carefully, because of the tight nacelles. Decsents must be well planned and as I recall the engines are geared...which means you don't ever pull them back to idle for descents...you always carry power. All of which makes this a really poor choice for someone who is getting a multi. As for acquisition cost??...check the rags like Trade a Plane...and hold on. A good one is $$$$.
Best bet would be to check the Duke owners group webpage. Same on the Commander.
Don't get me wrong, I've always loved the plane. It's a nice step up from a smaller unpressurized cabin twin. But for the money, when I got to that stage of the game, I'd go to a small King Air.
AOPA's website can likely give you good cost comparisons and reviews on all these aircraft. They can also give you numbers and requirements on insurance for each one.
I still say go with the 'pig. (Aztec) The time difference overall based on speed will only be a few minutes. It's tough, reliable and easy to fly.
The Duke is a real sweet bird, but can be a real pain and VERY expensive on maintenance. They had a lot of corrosion problems in the belly around the outflow valves, and there were also corrosion problems as I recall with the vertical stab, I think. Both very expensive and could well ruin your day. There may also be wing spar checks that are $$. Duke insurance will eat you alive without a good bit of multi time and they'll want at least 100 hours in the plane with an instructor before they even consider writing a policy.
The engines eat turbochargers unless handled VERY carefully, because of the tight nacelles. Decsents must be well planned and as I recall the engines are geared...which means you don't ever pull them back to idle for descents...you always carry power. All of which makes this a really poor choice for someone who is getting a multi. As for acquisition cost??...check the rags like Trade a Plane...and hold on. A good one is $$$$.
Best bet would be to check the Duke owners group webpage. Same on the Commander.
Don't get me wrong, I've always loved the plane. It's a nice step up from a smaller unpressurized cabin twin. But for the money, when I got to that stage of the game, I'd go to a small King Air.
AOPA's website can likely give you good cost comparisons and reviews on all these aircraft. They can also give you numbers and requirements on insurance for each one.
I still say go with the 'pig. (Aztec) The time difference overall based on speed will only be a few minutes. It's tough, reliable and easy to fly.
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
Good advice though if someone's looking into the Twin Bonanza and/or 421. ALWAYS make sure the engines are driving the props.
-mini
IIRC it's just the TIO-540s on the Duke.
Good advice though if someone's looking into the Twin Bonanza and/or 421. ALWAYS make sure the engines are driving the props.
-mini
kiloalpha
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
Same with the pressurized piston Twin Commanders (680FL), they are all geared props and have problems. Bleh!
Same with the pressurized piston Twin Commanders (680FL), they are all geared props and have problems. Bleh!
WacoFan
Bigly
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
If you insist on burning kerosene and having a nosewheel a turbine Duke would be hard to beat for the singular reason of sexiness. I could even get laid if I had a turbine Duke. Seriously, what an amazing looking machine.
If you insist on burning kerosene and having a nosewheel a turbine Duke would be hard to beat for the singular reason of sexiness. I could even get laid if I had a turbine Duke. Seriously, what an amazing looking machine.
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
-mini
When I win Powerball tonight, I'll be buying 3 of them. You're welcome to come sit in one and make airplane noises anytime you like.If you insist on burning kerosene and having a nosewheel a turbine Duke would be hard to beat for the singular reason of sexiness. I could even get laid if I had a turbine Duke. Seriously, what an amazing looking machine.
-mini
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
LOL!!
Checked out an old Navajo today. Maintenance was said to be about $2300 annually, and it was flown on average of 300 hours per year (part 135). Is that good?
LOL!!
Checked out an old Navajo today. Maintenance was said to be about $2300 annually, and it was flown on average of 300 hours per year (part 135). Is that good?
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
...I've got this beach side property in Arizona you might want to take a look at.
Maybe the annual inspection is $2300, but I don't buy that the entire mx bill for a year is $2300.
-mini
...I've got this beach side property in Arizona you might want to take a look at.
Maybe the annual inspection is $2300, but I don't buy that the entire mx bill for a year is $2300.
-mini
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio
Maybe that's what he meant...
The engines needed overhauling though, and it looked raggedy...
:laff:
Maybe that's what he meant...
The engines needed overhauling though, and it looked raggedy...