Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestions?

WestIndian425

WestIndian425

Well-Known Member
Hello, my fellow JC'ers!

Alright here's the skinny:

A dear friend of mine wants me to look into purchasing a piston twin, capable of carrying about 6 people with average baggage at least 400nm, and can also be used for training (not too complicated and can take the "abuse"). I have no clue where to start looking, so I jumped on Controller and came across these:
  • Queen Air
  • Aerostar
  • Cessna 414
For those of you more in the know, I'm sure there are others that can be added to the list, but I'm open to suggestions. :)

Thanks in advance!!
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

I don't think any of those three would make very good trainers.

I would think more along the lines of an Aztec, a Seneca, or a Baron.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Old Pete said:
I don't think any of those three would make very good trainers.

I would think more along the lines of an Aztec, a Seneca, or a Baron.
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Except you aren't taking 6 people with average bags 400 miles in a Seneca or Baron.

People: 195# x 6 = 1170#
Bags: 35# x 6 = 210#

So you need something that can go 400 miles with 1380# of "stuff" on board...and that's being generous with bags.

-mini
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

WestIndian425 said:
They're that bad? :confused:
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No. They're worse.

If you fly the 414 unpressurized and keep the power settings WAY LOW for training, it can be done without too much pain...but that's going to be an expensive bird to train in. If insurance will even allow it.

I don't know that any insurance company that would allow training in an aerostar except for training for the pilot to fly it...no "multi-engine" training. That's just generally. I'm sure they are out there for the right price (premium).

*edit*
I'd almost recommend a 421 for the trips and a Duchess (which can be had very cheap right now) for training.

-mini
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Old Pete said:
I don't think any of those three would make very good trainers.

I would think more along the lines of an Aztec, a Seneca, or a Baron.
Click to expand...

Aztec would probably be the best bet out of those three. Seem to remember you could fill it up good, and still have some room for fuel. Not the fastest twin out there, but it'll get off the ground like nobody's business.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

WestIndian425 said:
They're that bad? :confused:

I thought of those, but can they carry 6 people? (The issue here is more than 4 seats...)
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they have 6 seats, but mini is right, you couldn't fill them and go 400nm.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

If you're talking "flight training" in the usual sense of the word, I don't think you're going to find anything to fit the dual role use like you've described.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Yeah, I'm pretty sure training would be expensive in anything outside of the Dutchess or Seminole.

Still, I'm sure that there is something out there that could conceivably "fit the bill".
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Do you only need to train a few people, or a school setting?
Navajo would be a contender if you can leave the training behind. The above poster is correct, the roles are not co-linear.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

WestIndian425 said:
Still, I'm sure that there is something out there that could conceivably "fit the bill".
Click to expand...
Like I said, you can probably pull it off in the 414, just don't pressurize it and keep the power settings very low. Insurance might balk though.

-mini
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

WestIndian425 said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure training would be expensive in anything outside of the Dutchess or Seminole.

Still, I'm sure that there is something out there that could conceivably "fit the bill".
Click to expand...

I don't know that training in an Aztec is that much more expensive. Where I trained, the choices were a PA-44 at 220/hr or 209/hr block of 10, or a PA-23-250 at 250/hr or 225/hr block's of 10. So, since I knew that I might as well get the high performance endorsement out of the way, I paid the extra. Plus, considering that the Seminole was at a towered airport, under the bravo, compared to the Aztec at an uncontrolled field, just barely on the edge of the bravo, I probably saved money by going with the Aztec, due to the travel times to the practice areas.

I think that in certain instances, you could make something like an Aztec or Seneca work for training. Probably not so on a Baron or 310. Perhaps you could make it work on like a Commander 500, if you've got a mechanic around that knows them.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

KSCessnaDriver said:
I think that in certain instances, you could make something like an Aztec or Seneca work for training. Probably not so on a Baron or 310.
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There's a few places that used to teach in Barons and 310s before the Twinstar came out and the Seminole got built with the glass and poeple started wanting to fly that kinda thing. Gas was a lot cheaper too.

-mini
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

My family has a 1969 Cessna 310, here are the numbers for it, it might suit your needs.

It can carry 6 people (190-200lbs a person, including luggage) and 100 gals of gas (total fuel in the tip tanks).

With 100 gals, you'll get 2 hours of flight time with an hour reserve, at roughly 185-195 kts burning 30 gals/hour.

Total fuel capacity is 140 gals, 2 main tanks @ 50 gals a side (tip tanks) and 2 aux tanks @ 20 gals a side (in the wing).

Airplane has Continental IO-470 engines, normally aspirated and 260 hp.

It's a pretty easy plane to fly, and I've taught 3 people in it myself.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Itchy said:
Do you only need to train a few people, or a school setting?
Navajo would be a contender if you can leave the training behind. The above poster is correct, the roles are not co-linear.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at the Navajo as we speak, actually. If I were to leave the training option out for now and just do "transition training" instead for someone who already has a multi rating, you really think the Navajo is a good idea?
KSCessnaDriver said:
I don't know that training in an Aztec is that much more expensive. Where I trained, the choices were a PA-44 at 220/hr or 209/hr block of 10, or a PA-23-250 at 250/hr or 225/hr block's of 10. So, since I knew that I might as well get the high performance endorsement out of the way, I paid the extra. Plus, considering that the Seminole was at a towered airport, under the bravo, compared to the Aztec at an uncontrolled field, just barely on the edge of the bravo, I probably saved money by going with the Aztec, due to the travel times to the practice areas.

I think that in certain instances, you could make something like an Aztec or Seneca work for training. Probably not so on a Baron or 310. Perhaps you could make it work on like a Commander 500, if you've got a mechanic around that knows them.
Click to expand...
Is that right? I wonder what insurances are for an Aztec...
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

SurferLucas said:
My family has a 1969 Cessna 310, here are the numbers for it, it might suit your needs.

It can carry 6 people (190-200lbs a person, including luggage) and 100 gals of gas (total fuel in the tip tanks).

With 100 gals, you'll get 2 hours of flight time with an hour reserve, at roughly 185-195 kts burning 30 gals/hour.

Total fuel capacity is 140 gals, 2 main tanks @ 50 gals a side (tip tanks) and 2 aux tanks @ 20 gals a side (in the wing).

Airplane has Continental IO-470 engines, normally aspirated and 260 hp.

It's a pretty easy plane to fly, and I've taught 3 people in it myself.
Click to expand...
Hmm...

Okay so let's review:
  • Piper Aztec
  • Cessna 310
  • Cessna 414
  • Piper Navajo
Thanks, guys...keep 'em coming.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

WestIndian425 said:
I'm looking at the Navajo as we speak, actually. If I were to leave the training option out for now and just do "transition training" instead for someone who already has a multi rating, you really think the Navajo is a good idea?
Click to expand...

Having flown both the Navajo and 414/421 series, I prefer the Cessna's. From a technical standpoint, I find them easier to operate and easier for someone coming out of a Seminole/Duchess/Twin Star.

The Cessna's are pressurized and can get above the weather, however, it can be more costly for mx.
 
Re: Piston Twin Good for Training and Transport -- Suggestio

Are you talking training as in checkouts or training as in single engine work, VMC demos, etc? I'm sure training to get someone insurance qualified is not a big deal.

Just thinking aloud here. If insurance is an issue with the training, A Cessna 310's might be able to do that depending on what wing tip tanks it has etc. (The swept tanks add to the usefull load.) No pressurization though and if I recall there are some weight limitation issues in the back two seats.

I have flown a 414 a little and I thought it handled much like the 310. Though you are not going to want to do much single engine work if you want to baby those engines. Otherwise if you can find a healthy one, it would probably meet those needs.
 
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