Piper Mirage PPL

[wjmiller3]

Anyboby ever do any private training in a PA-46? A guy just called me with a Mexican license wanting to get his FAA private and instrument using his own plane.

Just curious if there are any unusual stall caracteristics, ect. I have a few hours in them, but never done any manuevers. The plane is not here, so I cant look in the POH to see if it says anything about manuevers.

 

[minitour]

My first thought: Insurance is going to allow this?

-mini

 

[wjmiller3]

My first thought: Insurance is going to allow this?

-mini

Not sure. But it is his own plane, he has his Mexican SEL MEL Instrument license, he is insured, he just wants the FAA certificate. What would the problem be? That the plane is used for instruction? I am not up on aviation insurance.

 

[mshunter]

A cabin class single used for instruction? Not likely. If he has the money to afford an airplane like that, I would see if I could talk him into renting a 172. And the TSA test "advises" against this sort of activity. I think the most appropriate response would be to "Inform your supervisor."

 

[wjmiller3]

A cabin class single used for instruction? Not likely. If he has the money to afford an airplane like that, I would see if I could talk him into renting a 172. And the TSA test "advises" against this sort of activity. I think the most appropriate response would be to "Inform your supervisor."

Good point. The more I think about it, I will try to talk him in a cirrus. It would be nice to get some more 46 time though.

 

[c172captain]

Why come to a final decision to get him to rent another aircraft when you don't know(as far as I can tell) if he'll be allowed to simply use his own aircraft. If he is allowed to then you might as well take full advantage of it and have him train in that. If he can't... cross that bridge when you get to it

 

[wjmiller3]

Why come to a final decision to get him to rent another aircraft when you don't know(as far as I can tell) if he'll be allowed to simply use his own aircraft. If he is allowed to then you might as well take full advantage of it and have him train in that. If he can't... cross that bridge when you get to it

Back to one of the original questions then, has anyone taken a 46 to a full stall? Just curious how it reacts.

 

[Medpilot]

Back to one of the original questions then, has anyone taken a 46 to a full stall? Just curious how it reacts.

The stall in a PA-46 is very benign. I've logged over 50hrs in the last year in a Matrix and I can't think of anything that stands out. How proficient is the owner? I'm guessing since he already has a license he at least knows how to fly. You'll probably just have to go over the PP maneuvers and give him some ground concerning the differences in US regs vs. Mexican. If you're interested, I have the first 7 chapters of the POH (Matrix) on PDF I can email you.

 

[mshunter]

Why come to a final decision to get him to rent another aircraft when you don't know(as far as I can tell) if he'll be allowed to simply use his own aircraft. If he is allowed to then you might as well take full advantage of it and have him train in that. If he can't... cross that bridge when you get to it

It's a matter of getting him to pass a check ride, not rope the guy for money and fly his airplane around. It's hard on the airplane as well. Trying to manage a turbocharged engine of that nature in the maneuvers that are required to pass a ride is just asking for trouble. I am all for getting him an inst. rating in an airplane of that nature, but a PPL, it's just too much airplane. I woulden't go out and do slowflight in an airplane that had as small of cowl inlets as a Mirage/Matrix. You'll have the temps screaming in no time at all. The SR22 is hard to manage temps in in a training enviroment, and it's no Mirage/Matrix. When I have done it, I can only manage slow flight for about 3-4 mins before we have to get the thing out of slow flight to cool it back down. And just imagine if he accidentally gets it into a spin doing power on stalls, good luck getting it out.

 

[nosehair]

?? Can't he get a private issued on the basis of his mexican private? and then do the instrument written and checkride in his airplane ??

 

[wjmiller3]

?? Can't he get a private issued on the basis of his mexican private? and then do the instrument written and checkride in his airplane ??

It will have a restriction that its only valid with the Mexican license. He wants the FAA without restrictions, so it is the whole ride.

 

[c172captain]

It's a matter of getting him to pass a check ride, not rope the guy for money and fly his airplane around. It's hard on the airplane as well. Trying to manage a turbocharged engine of that nature in the maneuvers that are required to pass a ride is just asking for trouble. I am all for getting him an inst. rating in an airplane of that nature, but a PPL, it's just too much airplane. I woulden't go out and do slowflight in an airplane that had as small of cowl inlets as a Mirage/Matrix. You'll have the temps screaming in no time at all. The SR22 is hard to manage temps in in a training enviroment, and it's no Mirage/Matrix. When I have done it, I can only manage slow flight for about 3-4 mins before we have to get the thing out of slow flight to cool it back down. And just imagine if he accidentally gets it into a spin doing power on stalls, good luck getting it out.

How much time do you need to do slow flight for a checkride? I was in slow flight for about 30 seconds just to show I could maintain a stable aircraft. And the power on stalls should be a non-issue. This is a guess, but I'm assuming that a luxury aircraft like that isn't as unstable or happy to go belly up as we might assume. I think that piper designed it to be easy to fly and be quite forgiving. That could be wrong but it's a pretty decent assumption seeing as many people have them and a few people have said already that the aircraft has benign flight characteristics.

As for roping the guy in and flying his plane around... wouldn't it be more useful for him to fly a plane he owns and is extremely more comfortable in rather than train in and re-learn (that's only if he initially started in a 172, if he hasn't then he actually has to learn) how to fly a 172? That would be more of a waste of time because he will have to spend X amount of time just getting familiar with the aircraft.

 

[georgetg]

Actually....

True story told to me by Burt Rutan at the airport restaurant in Mojave:

Dean Kamen (segway, enstrom), Burts friend, had boatloads of helo time.
This was the early 80s and he was looking for something he could fly himself to take business trips around the East coast.

Burt suggested the then new Mailbu (before all the engine issues started cropping up) and so Dean called Piper, ordered a new Malibu and asked if it came with training.
Sure does said piper come on down to Florida.

So Dean shows up on the flightline.

The Piper instructor askes hime how much time Dean has and Dean replies with beaucoup hours in helicopters, so the instructor goes "no, I mean how many hours fixed wing?"

"None, that's why I'm here for training"

So the instructor steers away from the Malibu towards a Warrior and says "let's start with this"

Dean protests "I'm not learning to fly a Warrior I have no interest in that. I'm getting the Malibu so we'll train in the Malibu."

Dean ends up flying the Malibu home with a cross country endorsement.

Now here's the thing, Dean Kamen is one of the sharpest and most disciplined people alive. The successful training was a large part due to his personality and his previous flying experience.

I'd be careful proceeding with this one, but it has been done...

Cheers
George

 

[CK]

I've done power off stalls in a Mirage. I can't remember if we did power on stalls. I don't recall there being anything odd about the stall characteristics. Leave the mixture foward and there won't be any problems with temps in it during slow flight. I'd be comfortable doing what you are talking about, but I have a lot a time in the Mirage. If he wants to use his own airplane, let him use his own airplane. I did an initial CFI in a King Air once. Sure the guy could have used something smaller, but he had a King Air and money wasn't an issue.

Alex.

 

[SIUav8er]

I dont see what the problem is! The guy is already a licensed pilot, all your doing is converting his cert to FAA. He knows how to fly... treat it like a Flight Review which ends in a checkride. No big deal that its in a Mirage.

Back to one of the original questions then, has anyone taken a 46 to a full stall? Just curious how it reacts.

if youre not comfortable giving instruction in that aircraft, he should find another CFI with experience in the aircraft.

 

[wjmiller3]

I dont see what the problem is! The guy is already a licensed pilot, all your doing is converting his cert to FAA. He knows how to fly... treat it like a Flight Review which ends in a checkride. No big deal that its in a Mirage.



if youre not comfortable giving instruction in that aircraft, he should find another CFI with experience in the aircraft.

I never said I wasn't comfortable, and I do have some time in the aircraft. Just never stalled one and was curious, thats it...

 

[MFT1Air]

A cabin class single used for instruction? Not likely. If he has the money to afford an airplane like that, I would see if I could talk him into renting a 172. And the TSA test "advises" against this sort of activity. I think the most appropriate response would be to "Inform your supervisor."

Another reminder. . .he has his certificate already. . .which begs a question for me to research about a Mexican private certificate.

More words. . .here's the "skinny" on this guy receiving a FAA permit.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.10&idno=14

If he's already proficient at flying a Malibu, from the link, the rest appears rather simple.

 

[MFT1Air]

I've done power off stalls in a Mirage. I can't remember if we did power on stalls. I don't recall there being anything odd about the stall characteristics. Leave the mixture foward and there won't be any problems with temps in it during slow flight. I'd be comfortable doing what you are talking about, but I have a lot a time in the Mirage. If he wants to use his own airplane, let him use his own airplane. I did an initial CFI in a King Air once. Sure the guy could have used something smaller, but he had a King Air and money wasn't an issue.

Alex.

Thanks for the reminder; I need to run out and pick up a lottery ticket.

 

[wjmiller3]

Another reminder. . .he has his certificate already. . .which begs a question for me to research about a Mexican private certificate.

More words. . .here's the "skinny" on this guy receiving a FAA permit.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.10&idno=14

If he's already proficient at flying a Malibu, from the link, the rest appears rather simple.

He already has his faa restricted license based on his Mexican license. He wants the license without the restriction, which takes the whole checkride.

 

[SIUav8er]

I never said I wasn't comfortable, and I do have some time in the aircraft. Just never stalled one and was curious, thats it...

And that is exactly what I was referring to. Doing stuff in the airplane for the first time while youre trying to instruct someone isnt a good idea IMO... just saying.