Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... NYer... You didn't help your case with that statement.NYer914 said:
LOL! Yeah... all the other posts prior to it.DE727UPS said:
I think we are on the same page here.DE727UPS said:
Bob
Pinnacle Interviews in Jacksonville, FL
- Thread starter ComplexHiAv8r
- Start date
Bob
blee256
Well-Known Member
NYer914 said:
From ATPs website......."Receive a First Officer conditional employment offer prior to enrolling and paying for the Airline Transition Program."
NYer914,
Do you work for ATP?? PR is that you? if it is, hi buddy.
People are just expressing their opinion on ATPs bridge program. Just like they would at any other bridge program. I am not saying this is PFT/J. And i dont think other people are either. In no way does one compare ATP to GIA. If people think its a waste of money, they are allowed to express it here. Thats what this message board is for. People jump all over RAA's transition program, but I dont see you get all up in arms about that? but why ATPs?
Sean_S
New Member
NYer914 said:
You must either work for ATP or be one of the intelligent ones that went through this program... BTW I did do the 90 day program but had no desire to work there they didn’t even get a copy of my resume, I have a local job that pays way better then ATP. I couldn’t care any less where people get their ratings, but I will continue to think that people that do these programs are idiots that have no common sense.
We are minding our business I for one don’t want to work next to someone that bought their job nor am I jealous of not doing this program I actually have a work ethic and some morals (also a little financial common sense) so I don’t mind building real experience instead of just buying my way to the right seat of a CRJ. This might also come as a surprise to you but not everyone wants to fly for a regional, and for those people this program makes even less sense.
Don’t worry though at the end of the day you’re just paying to play pilot until you get all that debt paid off. If you would like to accuse me of applying at ATP and not making it pass the Rich ride why don’t you back it up?
Sean_S
New Member
Captain_Bob said:Yeah we did Tx... and I personally still wouldn't have done it due to my personal situation... but if you go back and review some of my EARLY posts with JC, you'll see where even I was asking about advanced training like Citation Types etc... being something decent to have on a resume.
I wasn't looking for a short cut... but looking at options.
Even though the program isn't for me... it's still very hard for me to see the detriment to the industry. All this talk about kickbacks, lowering pay, people being idiots for even considering a program like this tends to grate on my nerves a bit.
People will forever think that their way was the best way... and why not? We all want to think that the decision we made was the best. We just need to think that there are other people doing what's right for them and their families out there as well.
And until someone can show me documentation and hard numbers instead of a diatribe of speculation and opinion, as to how this type of "advanced training" is killing the industry simply because of a relationship between a reputable flight school and a growing regional... then I'll be here to argue the more "human" side.
That said... I'm sure there's a few of you guys out there banging your head on your screen going... "WTFO... Didn't Bob understand anything I said??" Well... yeah... If it makes ya feel any better... I'm doing the same thing on my end.
Dude... and I'm sooooo sorry you had to put up with Ernie... Twice! Doh!
Bob
Well here is a quick example I can come up with, when Pinnacle was hiring pilots from Gulfstream did they pay during training and did they pay for lodging? If management knows someone is willing to pay to be there then they will take them for all it’s worth.
Ernie = Mr. Personality
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
Is being a CFI the one and only way to an airline job? I have to ask becuase while it is the most prevalent and popular way, I think there are other ways pilots can develop good skills. I learned some of the best lessons in my 800 hours flying my airplane doing IFR/VFR cross countries. People build experience in different ways. If someone doesnt want to be a CFI they shouldnt have to and they shouldnt be singled out during an interview. If they want to work a regular job that pays and pay to rent an airplane on the weekends or after work flying cross countries, IFR, and VFR I think its a great way to build time and solid experience. The guy that rents and does touch and gos and expects to be a quality airline/cargo pilot is kidding himself. If ATPs program get these guys out in the real world of flying cross countries building their overall skills along with their IFR capabilities then then I am okay with that. Its only what one makes of it. As I mentioned earlier, if a CFI does PPLs in a 152 all day is he building quality time? No way he is. Now, if a commercial pilot is out doing IFR cross countries, working the ATC system, and learning by experience I think that is great experience. Its all up to the individual. I have met both CPs and CFIs who are the biggest slackers I have ever know and unsafe to fly with because they've decided to be lazy and on the other side, I've known PPL with IR that could show up most CFIs because they have been flying IFR for years and log hundreds of hours a year in their airplane.
Being a good pilot is a case by case basis and can only be decided by the person. If one was to take part in ATPs program, they need to make the very best of it.
NYer914
New Member
Sean_S said:
I'm confused, you say that people that do "these programs are idiots and have no common sense"...but you did the 90 day program, are you calling yourself an idiot? do you not have the same debt as everyone else? Also, I'm not technically accusing you of not making it through standardization, you just seem like the type that is bitter towards ATP because you did not make it through the entire process...it's ok though there are a lot of people who don't make it through, it doesn't mean that you are a bad pilot, just that you might need to instruct at a slower pace. I have friends that I flew with that did not make it through standardization and they are great pilots, probably better than I am...I'm speaking generally, this is not directed toward you.
Also, I'm not here to cause problems so this is my final word on this subject.
Sean_S
New Member
No I think the ACPP is a good program but I do not think the transition and direct tack programs are good. The transition and direct track programs are the ones I was referring to.
I don't really consider working at ATP after you complete the program as being the "entire program" I paid for and got what I wanted and never really had a desire to instruct at ATP. It works for some people and that’s fine but I for one will not work as much as an ATP instructor and get paid 800 bucks to do it, I value my time more then that. Even though I liked the ACPP program I will not be recommending ATP to anyone due to these programs. I don't have the same amount of debt as most of the people that do the ACPP and I sure don't have anywhere near the amount of debt as a person that does the ACPP and transition program.
I don't really consider working at ATP after you complete the program as being the "entire program" I paid for and got what I wanted and never really had a desire to instruct at ATP. It works for some people and that’s fine but I for one will not work as much as an ATP instructor and get paid 800 bucks to do it, I value my time more then that. Even though I liked the ACPP program I will not be recommending ATP to anyone due to these programs. I don't have the same amount of debt as most of the people that do the ACPP and I sure don't have anywhere near the amount of debt as a person that does the ACPP and transition program.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
meritflyer said:
Go back and look at my posts, Merit. I was simply pointing out something you put in your thread about captains being of a CFI background and loving to teach. Now, you're saying there are other ways to get there. So, where are these captains coming from that love to teach and have CFI backgrounds that you speak so highly of. I do not think the CFI route is the only way. I did some other jobs on my way up, along with CFI'ing. My main concern is that people at least have a little aviation experience outside of school before going to put 50+ people behind them. I don't give a rat's a$$ how well they do in the sim...it's the real-world stuff that will make or break the crew.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
meritflyer said:
I agree, and as I said early, the CFI is doing himself an extreme disservice. I don't know any CFIs personally with career aspects of going further that JUST did PPL or Commercial students. Even having an instrument student will keep you on your toes and get you in the ATC system (with twice the workload sometimes). You also do the cross countries with the student. That's just the teaching aspect. I've done everything from fly along with people in high performance airplanes b/c they didn't feel comfortable to doing instrument test flights in a Navajo. The door to get me to those opportunities was being a CFI and (ready for this, Doug?) NETWORKING. I agree that renting or flying cross countries with friends is a damn good way to build experience. It's also tangible hours in the logbook and money better spent than a bridge program IMO. I can sit here and argue that guys that did the bridge programs didn't do much more than the CFI that taught PPLs in a 152. They had minor experience in real life situations on X/C and did a lot of touch and gos. The only difference is they have a lot of hours in a dark box or a classroom that will help them through training. Getting through training does not necessarily make you a pilot.
As far as the comment on airlines not hiring bad pilots, they do so every damn day. That's why the training programs are so stringent, long and have IOE tacked to the end of them. That's to weed out the obvious bad eggs. Probabtion is a year long to get the guys that aren't cutting it that slipped through the cracks. The last thing they want is one of these guys making it to captain and causing another FLG3701.
Agree 100%, which is why I feel these "get an leg up on everyone else" programs tends to help out the guys with weak skills while hindering the ones that are stronger.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
Agreed. Most Capts either have a CFI or Military background. Regardless of their background, everyone likes to share their knowledge.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"if a CFI does PPLs in a 152 all day is he building quality time? No way he is"
BS. You're not speaking as a CFI, are you? The CFI in a 152 with PPL's is learning how to approach different students in different ways, where to draw the line with each one, and how to apply CRM and do it in a way that's effective. You make it sound like you need to be touching the yoke to learn, and experience, new things?
Exactly what I'd expect someone with your background to say, though, it makes perfect sense.
BS. You're not speaking as a CFI, are you? The CFI in a 152 with PPL's is learning how to approach different students in different ways, where to draw the line with each one, and how to apply CRM and do it in a way that's effective. You make it sound like you need to be touching the yoke to learn, and experience, new things?
Exactly what I'd expect someone with your background to say, though, it makes perfect sense.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
DE727UPS said:
He may be building good stick and rudder time and CRM however when discussing effective instrument, cross country, and effective decision making with regards to fuel, planning, and dodging weather I'd much rather fly with the CP who flies all over the place IFR than the CFI who does 152 PPLs. Nothing against being a CFI. I am working on mine now. As I mentioned, its all what we make of our time in the airplane.
Who would you rather fly with? The 152, FBO CFI doing local PPL lessons with 500 hours or a CP with the same hours that flies all over the place (maybe for business?) under IFR?
You decide.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Come on DE727,
He doesn't feel that anybody needs to CFI, he's doing it much better, but he hopes to have a good captain that will be more than willing to teach him. But he doesn't want to teach and doesn't think anybody should have to, except his captain.
He wants the best of both worlds. And Merit, as far as military background, some have instructed and some not. Some have a very bad preconceived notion of what civilians do and know. Good luck on getting them to be your "CFI".
He doesn't feel that anybody needs to CFI, he's doing it much better, but he hopes to have a good captain that will be more than willing to teach him. But he doesn't want to teach and doesn't think anybody should have to, except his captain.
He wants the best of both worlds. And Merit, as far as military background, some have instructed and some not. Some have a very bad preconceived notion of what civilians do and know. Good luck on getting them to be your "CFI".
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
Tex,
Way out of context. We are discussing building quality time and pushing yourself to do such whether a CFI or not. If it came across as having the Captain wipe the FOs ass for him, my bad. I am not a professional aviator nor do I anticpate being one. I am working on my CFI to hone my CP skills and maybe teach a few friends some stuff. I think every new FO wants a good captain to explain any question they may have. You are stupid to act like you know it all as a newbie FO. Rely on your Captains experience and abilities that are greater than your own.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Okay, so I have to ask. What about when a majority of the FOs out there are the people that skipped the CFI route? Who are gonna be the captains that teach the new FOs that also skipped the CFI route? Or are they just not going to let those FOs upgrade?
The job of a captain in regards to the FO should be guidance, not teaching. They are different things altogether.
The job of a captain in regards to the FO should be guidance, not teaching. They are different things altogether.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Good point. Now I have to ask, hypothetically speaking lets say you are a FO for 3-4 years with no CFI then upgraded to Captain. Why would you need to "teach" the new FO anything at all if, as you put it, you only have to "guide"?
To assume a long time FO with no CFI background who ultimately is upgraded will not be able to provide adequate "guidance" to their FOs seems a little off to me. If this is the case, airlines should not upgrade non-CFI FOs. I go back to the individual theory. Some Capts w/ CFI and some w/out CFI are all going to guide different. Some will be helpful and some will not regardless of their background.
To assume a long time FO with no CFI background who ultimately is upgraded will not be able to provide adequate "guidance" to their FOs seems a little off to me. If this is the case, airlines should not upgrade non-CFI FOs. I go back to the individual theory. Some Capts w/ CFI and some w/out CFI are all going to guide different. Some will be helpful and some will not regardless of their background.
KLB
Well-Known Member
meritflyer said:
I don't know. Neither should you. It's on a case by case basis. I'm not really in the bridge program vs. CFI argument, but I will say that it is darn difficult to judge a pilot by his background. As a CFI (who has given many lessons in a 152 I might add), I 've flown with the weekend warriors who own there own aircraft that fly horrible. They never use checklist, their heads are always inside the cockpit, and etc...... I have provided training to students (in 152's I might add) that have gone back to their countries and are about to go into training for an A380, 737's, Twin Otters, and etc.
I kind of take offense to the degrading of the CFI that goes on around here sometimes. Until you've been in busy airspace, in IMC, with a student with the leans, intercepting the localizer for an ILS approach (usually with students over banking in excess of 45 degrees or flat out going through the localizer and not knowing it), a FedEx MD-11 behind you, with ATC telling you to keep your speed up, and in a 1967 PA-28 140 with the instrument panel being held together with duck tape......YOU DON'T KNOW What CRM IS!
And I truly believe that I'm a better for being in those type of situations.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Let me jump in here.
I've flown with both ex-Freight dogs and ex-CFIs.
I'd say the freight dogs had the "routine" down a little better, but the CFIs were much more likely to be good at things like briefings, CRM, emergency procedures, etc.
I'm glad I have a CFI and I maintain it!
I've flown with both ex-Freight dogs and ex-CFIs.
I'd say the freight dogs had the "routine" down a little better, but the CFIs were much more likely to be good at things like briefings, CRM, emergency procedures, etc.
I'm glad I have a CFI and I maintain it!
adreamer
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
To me, I am enjoying instructing. I just wish they can pay instructors a little more.
Merit, you can fly all over the place. Until you start instructing and responsible for another soul in the cockpit, you will not understand the difference. Just my 0.02adreamer
The most important aspect of a airline captain is leadership and the abilty to listen. (in my op). A cfi rating does not gurantee this, but naturally it will probably come from experience teaching.
In college track I was not a team captain, but often younger teamates would come to me for advice. I like to think this was due to my ability to treat them as equals not as freshman to bully or talk down to. I believe in communication and leading by example. I hope I am able to bring these to the flight deck every day. I am not in the airlines yet, but will be so within the near future.
We must not be quick to judge a person on attending a program such as this. I see, often on JC, the quick trigger being pulled and aimed at people we do not know. I am in no postition to judge another for their choices, but I will listen and discuss. There is much anger here, thankfully there some good thoughts, but often a narrow approach to the discussion.
And to assume someone with lowtime will crumble under pressure just because they have not topped 1000 hours is an interesting view - does any one here know a person who was low time and did have an issue on a flight on any of the low-time hiring regionals
In college track I was not a team captain, but often younger teamates would come to me for advice. I like to think this was due to my ability to treat them as equals not as freshman to bully or talk down to. I believe in communication and leading by example. I hope I am able to bring these to the flight deck every day. I am not in the airlines yet, but will be so within the near future.
We must not be quick to judge a person on attending a program such as this. I see, often on JC, the quick trigger being pulled and aimed at people we do not know. I am in no postition to judge another for their choices, but I will listen and discuss. There is much anger here, thankfully there some good thoughts, but often a narrow approach to the discussion.
And to assume someone with lowtime will crumble under pressure just because they have not topped 1000 hours is an interesting view - does any one here know a person who was low time and did have an issue on a flight on any of the low-time hiring regionals