Pinnacle Interviews in Jacksonville, FL

I would agree that the gun is jumped too often on JC, myself included. I have said before, we know nothing about the guy who did a bridge program, bought a type, ect. and until you've walked in his/her shoes we shouldnt be so quick to judge.

All good points.

With regards to low timers being in the left seat - what about Euro airlines who have ab initio programs such as Lufthansa and Aero Mexico just to name a few. They safety records tend to be in line with most US carriers. So, its all personal opinion.
 
"As I mentioned earlier, if a CFI does PPLs in a 152 all day is he building quality time? No way he is"

"until you've walked in his/her shoes we shouldnt be so quick to judge"

Do you see a contradiction here?

"With regards to low timers being in the left seat - what about Euro airlines who have ab initio programs such as Lufthansa"

I'll assume you meant to say right seat. In Europe, the standards are much higher. Tell me a little bit about that before you say it's all about personal opinion and not rooted in fact. The US military has guys landing on aircraft carriers at night with 300 hours. It can be done. Paying 25K to ATP doesn't meet that standard, do you think?
 
"I see, often on JC, the quick trigger being pulled and aimed at people we do not know"

"There is much anger here, thankfully there some good thoughts, but often a narrow approach to the discussion"

I don't know, man. I've been around here a long time. You're on your third post. We are talking about some pretty important stuff, in my view. It's passionate. I really think there is a right way and a wrong way to enter this business. If I ruffle your feathers for being "insensitive" to opposing opinions, then I'd tell you to keep looking for a more "happy" site. People here tell it like it is, in their view.

As to not judging people....I have no problem juding scabs and Gulfstreamers. I also don't think 300 hour guys belong in a jet airliner. When you figure out some way I can express my opinion in a "happy", non-judgemental way, let me know. But it's just a fact, in my view, that someone with that experience level shouldn't be in the seat. It doesn't matter what that persons background is or what they did, it just shouldn't be...

If that's a narrow view, then so be it. I'm happy to be narrow minded, sometimes, I guess.
 
200 and 300 hour guys in the right seat!!??

DE727UPS said:
I also don't think 300 hour guys belong in a jet airliner.
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Nor do I... We agree on that. And even though the conversations are taking a bit of a turn from the original subject... I've just got one more thing to throw out and I'm done.

The ATP program that brought all this hub-bub to light has a minimum experience pre-requisite of 350TT along with your SE and ME Commercial and Instrument ratings just to even attend the program. After they complete the program the pilots who signed up with the MINS will have 500TT of which 100 is current multi... and I would venture to say this program attracts a lot of folks like my "Chuck" example or even propilot3574 (the guy who asked about Great Lakes in the General Forum), who have maybe 400-800 hours and are looking for that last little boost. That would mean these guys would end up with a Min. of 500TT and it only goes higher from there 600, 700, 900, etc....

I only bring this up because I keep seeing the 200TT and 300TT numbers still flying into everyone's conversational arguements about having low timers in the right seat. This would not apply in the airline transition program's case... What is the "Magic" number everyone would want people to be hired at? (Rhetorical... I'm not going to argue it.) :)

Done... I think... ;)

(maybe...) ;)

Bob
 
Awww, come on Bob...done so soon? I thought we were just getting started. I agree, we've beaten this to death again. As for myself personally, I would like to see everybody have at least 135 IFR PIC minimums.

Have a great one!!
TX
 
Now my quetsion being, this program was in existance long before the pinnacle thing came into the picture. So it was an okay program before, but now a bad one because you might get a job cuz of it?

Before, you werent paying the airline. After, you're still not paying the airline?

Therefore, im officially confused. Gulfstream - you pay them. ATP you pay ATP for the time (multi) just like anywhere else. Yet just because they have it where it's a possibility to get hired its all of a sudden bad?

Im pretty confused. Someone please clarify!
 
Bigey, my beef with the program was just as bad when they first came out with it. We discussed it then (don't remember how vocal I was about it, but I didn't like the program from the beginning), and are somewhat discussing it now:) . The program itself does not do any CFI..it's purely time building. There are some it works for. I personally feel you should at least get the ratings and go from there...if you don't like CFI'ing, fine do something else to build your time, but you've at least done the research and learned various teaching techniques. You may not know how or when to apply them during real-world teaching, but you've at least been exposed. Learning something good enough to teach it you'll find actually teaches you more than you ever thought it would.

As far as not paying the airline, that's true. I have problems when a respectable school, which has a good reputation, decides to get with an airline that hires an applicant and then tells the applicant they must do this specific program, and shell out $27K, or whatever it is. Whether it the airline or the school taking the cash, it's just not right to hire somebody and then say go pay this money before we'll take you on board. It goes back to what hoops pilots will jump through for a job and showing mgmt we'll do it for nothing, or even pay 27K to start out.

But, to each his or her own. Just stating how I see it.

TX
 
txpilot said:
Bigey, my beef with the program was just as bad when they first came out with it. We discussed it then (don't remember how vocal I was about it, but I didn't like the program from the beginning), and are somewhat discussing it now:) . The program itself does not do any CFI..it's purely time building. There are some it works for. I personally feel you should at least get the ratings and go from there...if you don't like CFI'ing, fine do something else to build your time, but you've at least done the research and learned various teaching techniques. You may not know how or when to apply them during real-world teaching, but you've at least been exposed. Learning something good enough to teach it you'll find actually teaches you more than you ever thought it would.

As far as not paying the airline, that's true. I have problems when a respectable school, which has a good reputation, decides to get with an airline that hires an applicant and then tells the applicant they must do this specific program, and shell out $27K, or whatever it is. Whether it the airline or the school taking the cash, it's just not right to hire somebody and then say go pay this money before we'll take you on board. It goes back to what hoops pilots will jump through for a job and showing mgmt we'll do it for nothing, or even pay 27K to start out.

But, to each his or her own. Just stating how I see it.

TX
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Hrmm i see.

I'm still feeling a little indifferent about it. I agree on the instructor part, but theres plenty of people who dont instruct and get a job right after getting commercial. Banner towing, sky dive, power line, traffic watch etc. So couldnt that arguement still come into play? I know this is your paying for, but my question also becomes what if this person has lets say 500 hours TT. And they need a boost in hours? 100 hours PIC ME and 50 hours PIC Glass. Now for instance, if someone was to do that at a school around here, it would cost around 20k if you purchase hour by hour.

Now, what's the difference if someone does hour by hour at a FBO vs. someone who does it through ATP? Now take away the alliance, and what's the beef?

Also, i think people are over-hyping it a tad bit. It's only for 6 candidates. It's not for everyone who joins the program?

I dont know...in my view, i dont see too much bad with it, just a time building program with a little bonus for 6 lucky people. The others will still plop 25k down and will not get hired.

:confused:
 
txpilot said:
And Merit, as far as military background, some have instructed and some not. Some have a very bad preconceived notion of what civilians do and know. Good luck on getting them to be your "CFI".
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You peasant peon pilots.........<spit>



:D
 
Captain_Bob said:
Bigs... you're singing my song... :)

Bob
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Sweet!

Im trying to just see it from all aspects, but it's just not hitting me as a PFT/PFJ kinda thing.

I think i make some pretty fair arguements, no?
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
Not sure why I got this email, but:

On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.
Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of Employment.
After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.
Check out the web site for details:
<http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=53116>
Sincerely,
James
--
James Krzeminski
Director of Admissions
Airline Transport Professionals (ATP)
800-ALL-ATPS / 800-255-2877
]
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Why didn't I get this? I feel left out.

Maybe it's because I'm Iranian..........lol
 
"Im trying to just see it from all aspects, but it's just not hitting me as a PFT/PFJ kinda thing"

PFJ it's not. That would be Gulfstream.
PFT, I don't know of any regionals doing PFT anymore. That would be like said regional making you pay 20K for your initial training if you wanted to work there. Yes, it was once like that.

What many condisder PFT is where you pay for type specific training to boost your resume and enhance your chance to get hired. In theory, I have no problem with that so long as the person doing it has some decent level of background and experience. 350 hours, no CFI, no previous job history in aviation, no seasoning process, no "dues paying". It just doesn't meet where I draw the line for someone to be an effective cockpit crewmember on a 50 passenger jet that says Northwest on the side of it.

Where is that line? I'm still trying to figure it out. There was a ATP guy who posted not long ago about getting hired at 700 hours after he did the RJ transition. He had worked at ATP as a CFI and wanted to move on. No problem with that. Ideally, I'm with Txpilot. 135 IFR mins would be a much better standard.
 
kellwolf said:
Even having an instrument student will keep you on your toes and get you in the ATC system (with twice the workload sometimes). You also do the cross countries with the student. That's just the teaching aspect.
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That is very true about the workload. Last week flying the Seminole cross country with an instrument student in actual IMC while the radios where starting to go highlighted that point. Keeping us within altitude and heading limits, noting our position and ground speed just in case we lost electrical, planning the route to fly if we did loose comm, and teaching all simultaneouly is an experience I would not have gotten if I were timebuilding.

Or today, taking a private student up in actual to get some of that 3 hours of instrument training was interesting. They can get disoriented pretty quickly so you are busy navigating, talking to ATC, keeping things upright, teaching scanning, etc. It's experiences like that that make me love this job and know I made the right choice with the CFI route.
 
navmode said:
And to assume someone with lowtime will crumble under pressure just because they have not topped 1000 hours is an interesting view - does any one here know a person who was low time and did have an issue on a flight on any of the low-time hiring regionals
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I'm not saying everyone that has low time will crumble under pressure, I'm saying it's LIKELY due to the lack of experience. Just like I'm sure not every CFI that instructs PPL in 152s (like Kelvin does mostly) isn't as good a candidate as a transition program grad. It's up to the individual pilot to advance their work ethic. What I'm seeing more of is less of a work ethic and more of a "get there fast b/c I don't want to deal with the boring stuff" attitude. I can't tell you how many people got the downtrodden look on their face coming into our flight school to check out our career program when they found out they wouldn't be flying an RJ in 3-6 months. Most of those people never came back. Whether they went to ATP, FSI, or any of the others I don't know.

Now, for a real world example of low timers getting in trouble due to bad ADM, look no further than the Pinnacle crash not too long ago. 3701 was a low time FO and a low time in type CA. BAD combination that resulted in an unfortunate event. Reading the transcript, the ADM went right out the window long before the engines even flamed out. Once that happened, the CRM broke down on top of that. It's that chain of events that MikeD likes to talk about.

Once again, not saying that ALL low timers would fall into that trap, just stating a real world example as was asked for.
 
I am back from searching for a "happy site" that DE727UPS suggested I seek out. No luck, but being only of the low-post varient, I tried to look for one that would allow me to pay for some posts to pretty up the numbers.

I agree with passionate discourse and I have seen many posts from DE727UPS, TXPILOT and ...many others...And the vast majority of the time I have learned from the discussion. So being fairly new to JC, I have read more than posted. I did want to get the question I asked in my post back up the page: ??does anybody know of an incident where a low time FO in a jet had an issue and could not handle the pressure or crumbled when overloaded on a to mins night with low fuel .... or other problems. The discussion here is good, but are there numbers to prove it out.


Facts and figures will not and are not an absolute answer to this question, however, I can not help but wonder if there is documented evidence of why low timers can not handle the job. this is asked to further discussion here, not to get a replay of the strong opinions against low timers getting the right seat of a shiney jet.

Good points by Kellwolf regarding work ethic. Many people want everything in an instant. I believe pilots need to be realistic about their abilities before jumping into a transition program. Some people can handle the responsibility and others need to be seasoned at a slower pace. Not only do you need to evaluate yourself before taking a flight but look at your skills before accepting responsibility for a plane full of people as a career move - without perhaps many more hours of teaching or quality time build maybe...

In regards to the sad events of the Pinnacle ferry flight, I agree this is an example. I do wonder if other, with passengers, events have occured...Maybe a NASA form or two have been sent in and I shall do a search..
 
Don, i understand your point. Very well taken.

I have a good friend that flew alot on his own after getting his PPL and finally getting to work on his instrument, commerical etc. By the time he'll be done, he'll have around 600 hours, and he has the foot in the door with American Eagle to get an interview at 600 hours. What do you think about that?
 
I just see personality flaws when two professional pilots let their ADM go out the window as in what happened in the PCL incident. When I fly with my friends in the C310, Seminole, or 172 we always have a very structured cockpit (my friend I fly with is a CFI). We discuss who is PIC, who does what during any emergency, ect. We act like we're flying a GV because its all about taking your job as a pilot, regardless of what you are flying or why, seriously.

I am sure a huge majority of guys that do the bridge or type programs are very immature in the cockpit. The guys that take flying very seriously study hard, are extremely professional in the cockpit, and take everything from taxiing to landing very serious are most likely better suited to handle an urgent situation. I think being a CFI builds maturity that many pilot lack inititially.

I am positive that there are guys with their type and CP that are incredibly good pilots that know how to fly (500+ hours) and can deal appropriately with situations whether its in a 172 or RJ.

You get out of it what you put in! If some doof attends type school at CAE and slides by his ground school and checkride I am sure he will freeze if the Captain ate the fish and is sick. The guy who goes in prepared, studies, asks questions, and aces his ride will be in a much better position to deal with an urgent situtation.

The problem I see here is that you just dont know the caliber of the type or bridge pilots if they havent been a CFI. Flying with another CFI you know they've dealt with all good and bad situations.
 
meritflyer said:
I just see personality flaws when two professional pilots let their ADM go out the window as in what happened in the PCL incident. When I fly with my friends in the C310, Seminole, or 172 we always have a very structured cockpit (my friend I fly with is a CFI). We discuss who is PIC, who does what during any emergency, ect. We act like we're flying a GV because its all about taking your job as a pilot, regardless of what you are flying or why, seriously.

I am sure a huge majority of guys that do the bridge or type programs are very immature in the cockpit. The guys that take flying very seriously study hard, are extremely professional in the cockpit, and take everything from taxiing to landing very serious are most likely better suited to handle an urgent situation. I think being a CFI builds maturity that many pilot lack inititially.

I am positive that there are guys with their type and CP that are incredibly good pilots that know how to fly (500+ hours) and can deal appropriately with situations whether its in a 172 or RJ.

You get out of it what you put in! If some doof attends type school at CAE and slides by his ground school and checkride I am sure he will freeze if the Captain ate the fish and is sick. The guy who goes in prepared, studies, asks questions, and aces his ride will be in a much better position to deal with an urgent situtation.

The problem I see here is that you just dont know the caliber of the type or bridge pilots if they havent been a CFI. Flying with another CFI you know they've dealt with all good and bad situations.
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Oh comon, a little bit generalization there?

Also, i hope the interview is hard enough to weed out these "immature people."
 
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