Pinnacle Interviews in Jacksonville, FL

blee... didn't realize you were in MSP... I guess the "lower canada" in your avatar should have been a give away... I'm up there on overnights at least once every few months... I'll try to give ya ring... if your cell is the same. :)

Bob
 
I was going to write a long diatribe to Meritflyer and realized there is nothing I can add to Kellwolf's last post. It's right on.

Meritflyer, you passed on getting into this profession for an 80K a year medical sales job. Yet you are trying to tell a UPS pilot and two PCL pilots that our views of "the process" are outdated and incorrect? Think about that...

I could care less if someone spends their hard earned cash, or their parents hard earned cash, to take a CRJ course. It's when certain airlines start having special hiring programs at low time if you spend your money with certain flight schools that it becomes marketing propaganda. Then, the next thing you know ATP starts taking out full page ads in Boys Life magazine, or something, saying "Airline pilots needed, we'll put you in a jet for only 80K" and you start getting guys who have no idea about this career spending big bucks to buy their way into a regional job.

If a guy has a some good experience in aviation and is tired of instructing, or whatever, and wants a boost to his resume, then I see no problem with an RJ course. It's when it puts a 300 hour guy on his first aviation job in a passenger jet that I have a problem with it.
 
Captain_Bob said:
blee... didn't realize you were in MSP... I guess the "lower canada" in your avatar should have been a give away... I'm up there on overnights at least once every few months... I'll try to give ya ring... if your cell is the same. :)

Bob

Hhmmm, Do I smell a MSP JC get-together......? Give a shout Out if so.....:nana2:
 
kellwolf said:
If that's all the guy did, then I agree with you. It's up to the CFI to get out there, stay current, stay up to date and fly some bigger equipment. I had no problems doing any of that as a CFI. I had to work to get some of that, but I managed.



You're forgetting one very crucial bit of info: this airline job is the low time guy's first flying job. He hasn't shown that he's responsible with someone else's equipment, with other people's lives or any kind of ADM. Even the CFI that only taught PPL students has all of that proven when he walks in the door. It would be like handing someone just out of school with an MBA the reins to a Fortune 500 company (maybe exagerating a bit, but you get the point). Which leads into Brian's point about lowering wages. If it's the only job you can get (other than CFIing or towing banners) you'll take what you can get paid for it (or most guys will). What happens is, the low time guys go for that wage 'cause they want to do anything but instruct (and banner towing only pays about $10/hr). The high time guys stick to instructing a little longer and go where the money's at (either freight, corportate, fractional, whatever). Next thing you know, the FOs are all making McDonald's wages b/c that's what the low time guys are happy (yeah, HAPPY) to get. We've even got a real world example above of how PCL had to change the training stuff in order to draw in qualified pilots.



I'm not saying that there aren't pilots out there with low time that CAN'T do it. Heck, one of my good friends is in my training class at PCL with 220 hours. He's a great guy, but I have no idea what kind of pilot he is. He's got an MD-90 (DC-9 whatever) type rating and he was good in systems class. Odds are he'll be good in the sim. My question is, is he gonna freeze up under real world stress. Remember, there is no "pause" button in the real plane, and no matter how real the sim appears, you always know you're not gonna die.



My problem is getting the interview IS the hardest part often times. So, they may not have paid for a job yet, but they sure as hell paid for an interview. I don't think it makes them a bad person necessarily, but I DO feel that it hurts the profession in the long run.



So, is the transition program making them a more qualified pilot as you stated above, or are they flushing the money down the toilet? Can't be both.



Nope, but if every other guy comes into training with a type rating to get an edge over the competition, it won't be long before the airlines wise up and realize they can save some cash by requiring types. Remember, airline management is concerned with the well being of the company and the shareholders, NOT the pilots.



Honestly, there hasn't been enough time with these programs to have any evidence. For the most part, regional contracts last 5 years before they get re-negotiated. Wages cannot go down (or up) unless there is a LOA or a new contract. Which way have wages been going lately? Who is the future of the pilot group? Answers, down and the guys who will do anything to keep from instructing.



I still have to differ with you. Cool thing about the internet and life in general is people can disagree. Market forces seem to be controlling wages a hell of a lot more than ALPA (who seems to be beating a steady retreat on all fronts in that arena). Truth is, if airlines see a way to cut costs, they'll do it, especially on the labor front since that's one of the biggest costs. If you've got a 1000 hour pilot with experience and a 300 hour pilot that came out of a transition program, who do you think will work for the lower wage? Sometimes airlines don't necessarily want the most qualified, just the cheapest. After all, the captain's gonna train them anyway, right?

1. There is no money in instructing. No high timers stick to instructing because they love it (there are a small minority).

2. Low or high timers shouldnt go into this profession to low ball themselves with or without type ratings. You select a profession to earn a living. Its not a hobby. Shame on any CFI, type pilot, high or low timer who accepts subpar wages.

3. 220 hours and a MD-90 type?? How is he even a commercial pilot. I'll assume he did his training part 141.

4. Taking two pilots.. 1) 500/100 CFI with type, 25 years old, wants to fly a regional jet. Pilot 2) 1500/200, CFI, 25 years old, wants to fly a RJ. Now, if I am reading you correctly you are saying pilot #1 would most likely take lower wages v. pilot #2? Purely speculative and opinionated.

5. These "programs" (such as Gulfstream, TAB, and ComAir) have been around for 20+ years. They didnt appear overnight.

6. You can have it both ways when discussing advanced training and flushing money down the toilet. You dont need a type to get a job. If you want to spend a huge amount on it, go for it. If its not needed to me, its a waste of money.

7. Getting the interivew is half the battle. So do you despise the guy who has a friend inside the airline and gets the interview with no problem? Such a person will get an interview much faster than anyone taking the normal application process.

A type rated or specialized trained pilot isnt the end of the world. DE727, you are right. I have chosen a different profession other than aviation. However, I am not blind to industry facts and have worked in large business for years and understand how specialized training works and affects industy.. aviation included. Why should it be any different for a regional carrier vs. a major carrier. I have many friends flying for United, SWA, and Continental who purchased their 737 and 757 types to make them more competitive. Did they need them (except SWA)? No. They had their turbine PIC from regionals and commuters. In no way am I advocating buying a RJ type.. I want to make that very clear. Simply put, there are not the cataclysmic consequences portrayed for such actions. The detrimental training today isnt guys who buy type ratings. Its the guys paying to be a professional FO.
 
meritflyer said:
1. There is no money in instructing. No high timers stick to instructing because they love it (there are a small minority).

Little money is better then minus 25k

meritflyer said:
4. Taking two pilots.. 1) 500/100 CFI with type, 25 years old, wants to fly a regional jet. Pilot 2) 1500/200, CFI, 25 years old, wants to fly a RJ. Now, if I am reading you correctly you are saying pilot #1 would most likely take lower wages v. pilot #2? Purely speculative and opinionated.

No, the one that is willing to make the stupid choice to drop 25k in order to shave a few months off making it to an airline is the type of person that would vote in lower pay. Let’s see you could instruct for a few months and make some money doing it or pay 25k to make it in two months, this isn't rocket science anyone who thinks this is a smart financial decision has a future in airline management.

meritflyer said:
6. You can have it both ways when discussing advanced training and flushing money down the toilet. You dont need a type to get a job. If you want to spend a huge amount on it, go for it. If its not needed to me, its a waste of money.

Yep it is a waste, and if I was a management type at an airline I would love to get all these individuals from ATP that do the direct track crap. You know why? If I had a line of suckers that were willing to drop 25k in order to expedite the hiring process I know I could take advantage of them; no pay during training, no lodging, oh I would even make them pay for their own jepp plates. The type of person that is willing to do this program has no common sense they wouldn’t bat an eye at the abuse because they would be flying a jet…
 
Sean_S said:
I would even make them pay for their own jepp plates.


Ummm, are there airlines out that that make the pilots pay for their own Jepp plates? Those things are expensive and I will be using the NACO plates until someone buys me Jepps.
 
meritflyer said:
1. There is no money in instructing. No high timers stick to instructing because they love it (there are a small minority).

And there are more jobs out there than just regionals. My point was that there are some CFIs making MORE than regional FOs. There's a reason I didn't jump ship on CFI to fly for Great Lakes. Even at places like PCL and Mesa there are some CFIs that make more money. Heck, I MIGHT have been able to pull down more cash in the summer flying my butt off instructing than I may at PCL. Those CFIs that don't want to work for the growing number of sub-par wages will stay in instructing a few months longer, get the 135 or ATP mins and go to freight companies or corporate/fractionals that pay better. Of all the CFIs I instructed with, I think I was the ONLY one that wanted to go regional. Everyone else is concentrating on freight jobs.

2. Low or high timers shouldnt go into this profession to low ball themselves with or without type ratings. You select a profession to earn a living. Its not a hobby. Shame on any CFI, type pilot, high or low timer who accepts subpar wages.

Tell that to the line of people that will "fly for free." The more of those guys we can educate, the better the wages will be.
3. 220 hours and a MD-90 type?? How is he even a commercial pilot. I'll assume he did his training part 141.

141 commercial mins = 190 TT

4. Taking two pilots.. 1) 500/100 CFI with type, 25 years old, wants to fly a regional jet. Pilot 2) 1500/200, CFI, 25 years old, wants to fly a RJ. Now, if I am reading you correctly you are saying pilot #1 would most likely take lower wages v. pilot #2? Purely speculative and opinionated.

Pilot #1 will most likely be offered and expected to accept a lower wage based on my second post above: no prior experience in aviation except for his training. S/he's an unknown factor when it comes to risk management.

5. These "programs" (such as Gulfstream, TAB, and ComAir) have been around for 20+ years. They didnt appear overnight.

Comair (now known as Delta Connection) has been sold a few times, and TAB no longer exists. They've been around a while, but they still have to be re-invented every few years or they go stale. If it weren't for the glossy ads saying you can be an airline pilot in next to no time, Gulfstream would be gone. As it is, I think they're having a difficult time placing their grads right now. I know PCL isn't taking anymore, Commutair hasn't hired in a while, and I don't think anyone else will touch them. Once word gets out no one from the program is moving on with that low amount of time HOPEFULLY the program will die.

6. You can have it both ways when discussing advanced training and flushing money down the toilet. You dont need a type to get a job. If you want to spend a huge amount on it, go for it. If its not needed to me, its a waste of money.

Not needed YET. See above post.

7. Getting the interivew is half the battle. So do you despise the guy who has a friend inside the airline and gets the interview with no problem? Such a person will get an interview much faster than anyone taking the normal application process.

Not at all. The guy who gets someone to walk his resume in has a current line pilot willing to put his butt on the line and vouch for him. The bridge guys have a marketing department that will walk anyone's resume in for the right $$$.

Simply put, there are not the cataclysmic consequences portrayed for such actions. The detrimental training today isnt guys who buy type ratings. Its the guys paying to be a professional FO.

Cataclysmic consequences are generally cataclysimc b/c no one saw them coming. Often, a few "crazy" souls saw it, but no one listened. :) I think the buying of types (even in SWA's case, actually) or these advanced programs COULD (notice I didn't say will) lead to a decrease in wages for the reasons I stated above. I do have to agree that the guys paying to take away some other guy's job that he should be paid for is the lowest of the low.


Oh, and Brian. Scheduling has nixed two sim sessions in a row and given me until Thurs or Friday off. I have THREE sim sessions to make up, and I was told "We'll try to let you know on Monday what your new schedule is." :) Basically, it's gonna be a 6 on, one off, one on, one off, checkride deal I think.
 
Different programs prepare you for different things. Captains will have to brief you on procedures, systems, and what to do all the time. Its their job. Thats why they are Captains and you are a FO. You assist them. Watch, interact, and learn. When you have a question or concern, ask. They are probably from a CFI background and love to teach.
- meritflyer

Just curious, and could care less at this point, but isn't the program in question about skipping the CFI route? So, if you continue to have people who are hired without instructing (either this program, or hired with wet COMM tickets), where are you going to get Captains that love to teach and were with a CFI background?

For those that don't think these programs lower the wages, then why are the mini majors continuing to lower their wages? Is it all because of the Majors? Why is Express Jet (Continental is doing okay, right?) trying to get lower and lower wages? Could it be because they are hiring people with fewer hours and fewer options? I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm too lazy to keep up with it all.

No matter how you spin it, it eventually lowers the bar. Don't hand me that people have the option to go back to CFI'ing...as I mentioned in another thread, I haven't heard of anybody going back to CFI'ing, except after 9/11, when there were really no options. And how are these people that skip or avoid the CFI gig going back to CFI'ing? I doubt they'd be able to afford the CFI training after all the debt/parental loans they have accumulated.

It's pretty bad, but I had a mini major FO come up to me after I had been on his flight a few months ago, asking if we were hiring and what our requirements were. I told him normal 135 mins and he told me he had to build up another "couple hundred hours" before he was qualified. From my experience with our hiring dept, he has NO chance with us because he's been on with the regionals. Good, bad, or indifferent, that's the way it is. I'm pretty sure unless the cargo operator is hurting to get people in class, they'd be the same way. I can say I've talked to quite a few cargo guys and gals and never heard anybody say they were formerly at a regional.

Once again, just my opinions and observations from outside the airline industry.

TX
 
TX,

The program I know of which my neighbor attended did CFIIME and ERJ type. So they may be geared to skip being a CFI or just an expensive way to spice up the old resume.
 
Airline Transition Program
For the aviation degree graduate with a commercial certificate ready for an airline job.


100 Hours Multi-Engine PIC
50 Hours Glass Cockpit Single-Engine PIC
Regional Jet Standards Certification™ Program with Ground School & 20 Hours Regional Jet FTD
Flight Management System (FMS) PC-Based Simulator Software
ATP Written Prep & Exam
All Books, Checklists, and Training Materials Included
Airline Interview Prep

Merit,

This is the program that started this talk. There is no mention of CFI in there. This is directly from the ATP website (minus the ads for the airlines they have guarantees/kicbacks with)
 
You people that are against ATP need to relax...I don't understand what the big deal is where one gets their ratings and how much they paid for them. What do you care? Mind your own business...I figure that you fit one of two scenerios...1) Angry that you did not take advantage of these programs 2) Have gone through these programs and not been able to "make the cut." Maybe, had the interview and didn't get hired with the airline, or went through ATP's 90 day program and couldn't pass the standardization checkride to work as a flight instructor for them (most likely Sean S). As for the UPS guy, you must be an older guy working at UPS so why do you get so upset? Also, YOU WORK FOR UPS!! All these guys on this board that are new regional pilots or trying to get there would love to work for UPS...if you do actually work there. Airlines are not going to hire bad pilots, the airlines that hire ATP graduates realize the excellent quality pilot that is produced by ATP. One last thing...ATP is NOT a PFJ(T) or whatever...they do not guarentee any type of job, not even as a flight instructor for them...you have to earn it...
 
Flying Joe's Flight School

Joe was an average guy who decided to start up nice little flight school...

He started with humble beginnings... renting twins and instructing on the side of his normal job as a first officer for an up and coming air carrier.

After rental rates started to skyrocket Joe thinks he should buy his own small twin and that way he could make more money on the side. He's pretty successful and now has hired his first full time instructor. He decides to buy another light twin so they can both instruct at the same time. Word gets out that these guys are good and they get tons of business. Joe decides to incorporate and officially open his new flight school. Flying Joes...

After years of positive word of mouth advertising Flying Joes gets a relatively decent reputation in the industry and Joe decides to branch out a bit. He buys some more planes, some Sims, and opens a few more offices. Due to his business "taking off" (pardon the pun). Joe has become quite successful and his school has a good name. Joe and his original instructors (also airline pilots on the side) do some brainstorming on how they can make the airlines more accessible to people who want to fly for a living... after all... it took Joe and his instructors literally years of flying, instructing, and "paying their dues...". There had to be a better way.

They decide to test out the rumors that they heard about them having a good reputation in the industry. They initiate talks with some regionals. The Flight Ops folks come out and tour Flying Joes, and are impressed by what they see... and lo and behold Joe and his company walk away with a few letters of agreement for interviews at those airlines for people who complete their program.

Still thinking that they could do better to help the average "Joe pilot" make his/her way into the business while completing all necessary hiring criteria for an airline... Joe tasks his company to come up with a better way to break the stigma that people need to "Pay their Dues" and work for years to build time while instructing, Jump piloting, paying some company to be an FO, pipeline and traffic runs, or just renting a 152 for hundreds of hours... What could they do to help transition people who get their ratings and have the resources and time to devote to gaining that extra edge to get an interview.

Of course you know by know "Flying Joe's, went back to the airlines and said... "Hey, we are thinking of creating a program for student pilots who have all their commercial certs, but need just some extra time to make it to the airlines... what do you suggest they would need in such a program?"

The Airlines said... "Well Joe... they would need to meet our multi-time requirement... and we are noticing a lot of even high-timers coming in that are having some difficulty in the Sims... so if you could give them an intro into what being in a SIM or a 121 Ground School is like, then that would help... Oh yes... and our fleet is all-glass now, and we've had some issues with high and low-time new-hires transitioning from the old steam gauges in their 152's, so if you could give them some exposure to flying in a Glass Cockpit then that would help too. Many or our new-hires also have never had that much exposure to GPS/FMS so if you could throw in some training time on the FMS that sure would help too. Hmmm... one last thing... do you think they could have their ATP written out of the way too? I tell you what Joe... if you could promise us that you can create a successful program like that, and we get a chance to see it first hand and approve of it... then we will even lower our mins for these guys willing to take that course."

Knowing Joe... it was a challenge he couldn't turn down. He set his goals and reached it. He just knew this program would help those pilots young and old break into the industry while at the same time breaking the antiquated myth that one has to "Pay their Dues" to be a safe, experienced, and qualified candidate.

And so, Joe created the program. He knew as a businessman that this could work. He knew as an Airline Pilot that this would work... he even wishes someone would have had this type of program back when he was trying to break into the industry...
 
XCS Airlines...

XCS airlines had been running well over the last few years... They had created lots of flying for themselves by providing decent service to other larger airlines. They knew if they wanted to grow they would need lots of pilots. So they decided to start a hiring binge to get some pilots on board before the anticipated announcement of new aircraft and new flying came out.

They decided to lower their mins to get a lot of candidates... They were surprised at what they were getting... They were meeting their quota... but it was only after screening out a lot of candidates. A lot of low timers just didn't have the knowledge and experience they were looking for... and even some of the high timer's had some problems with the interviews due to their experience being limited to "flying and instructing around the patch" too much.

The Director of Flight Ops... had just come from a very intriguing meeting with Flying Joe's Flight School and was fairly excited to tell the training department and HR about a program that Joe was developing that may help them gain quality candidates... He described the details of the program to management and they signed off on an LOA that would allow reduced mins and an interview for pilots who successfully completed Flying Joe's program. After all... what did they have to lose?? It doesn’t cost us a dime… If they don't make it past the interviews... then we don’t need to hire them. At the very least these guys will be coming to the interview with Glass, FMS, ATP regs, current multi, Complex Jet Systems and FTD flows and limitations, knowledge. It seems like a win-win situation.
 
Chuck...

Chuck is an average guy... He's 34 years old and an IT Systems Manager. He's done a lot for his family over the years... he's made good money and is financially stable. He's responsible for 10 call centers, 40 employees, and millions of dollars worth of equipment, programs, and contracts.

Despite all this... Chuck still finds time for his passion. Flying. Chuck has been a pilot now for 5 years, and has built himself a nice logbook. He built his time slowly by flying the patch, taking his family on trips out west to see the grandparents, and his most favorite trip of all was flying the family to Colorado for a winter vacation in 2002. He and his buddies often go and grab a hundred dollar hamburger at new and remote airports. He has 410 hours and his multi-commercial. He got the extra ratings as an excuse to do some more flying and keep his skills up. This is what makes him happy. He is less stressed about work when he's up there... looking down on the traffic jams, and the tall buildings with people cramped in cubicles staring at screens all day... This thought puts a smile on his face... followed by a twinge of sadness... for when he lands the plane and taxi's back to the FBO he knows that tomorrow he's back staring at a screen, and answering phone calls from unhappy customers all day.

Chuck just thinks there has to be something better. It's been his dream to fly for a living and his wife supports it. She wants Chuck to be happy. So Chuck decides to approach this like he does everything else in life... methodically and with a driving sense of purpose. He knows he's got a time limit... the age 60 rule. So he wonders if it's possible to even break into an industry where he's heard that you have to "Pay your Dues" for years before getting on with an airline.

He found a place online where he could break in to the industry almost overnight... CoastalRiver Airlines looked promising... you pay a fee for their training in an actual "airline" environment. You are an FO while you are training. This looked very promising to Chuck. It was quick, and the money wasn't an issue.

He brought the idea up to his $100 hamburger friends and they were shocked... They pointed Chuck in the direction of an Online Forum called "AirplaneCareers.com" and had him do some research about how bad it was for the airline industry to do such a program.

After reading and researching even more, Chuck found out about the hazards of a PFJ/PFT type of program, and decided to steer clear of that.

While reading the forums Chuck stumbles onto one of the AC.com advertisers and visits their site. He sees a program called the "Flying Joe's 121 Transition Program". Chuck looks at this and he seems pretty impressed by what it has to offer. Within 60+ days of hardcore training he could be one step closer to realizing his dream, and he found out this was the same company that he had gotten his Multi-Comm add-on from a few years back.

He sees that there have been some spirited debates about pilots needing to "earn" their time or "pay their dues" by instructing. He sees that some guys on their say they wouldn't trust someone like Chuck if he went through this program because he isn't "proven" on equipment or that he hasn't shown that he could be responsible in the air.

Chuck kind of laughs at this... These guys have no clue about his background and the responsibility that he has in his normal job... the measures and planning he takes when he prepares for a long cross-country with his family in the plane... How he successfully handled the "gear down, 2 green" emergency he had in the FBO's twin, with his son on board... The type of preparation and studying that he has put in to each and every one of his ratings... Nor do they understand the dedication he is willing to put forth to change his own future for what he intends to be... better.

Needless to say... Chuck decides to do the program... 2 weeks after finishing the program he goes to his first airline interview with XCS Airlines who seem to be on a hiring binge at the moment. He's a little nervous... after all he's interviewed for high level positions in the past... but this was different. This was his dream job... and he only decided 90 days ago to go for his dreams. Throughout the interview... Chuck surprised even himself at how much knowledge he had that he didn't think he did. The interviewers asked him several questions about the systems on the Jet that he did FTD's for in his transition program and were pleased with his responses.

Chuck got a letter in the mail 1 week later offering him a class date. Chuck and his family went out to dinner that night to celebrate his new career.
 
Todd...

Todd hates his job... and just wants to fly for a living... He's 24 years old, and has dreamed of flying since he was a kid. His parents always thought it would be a phase, but supported his flying by requiring that he complete his college degree if they were to continue to pay for flying lessons.

Todd knew what completing his degree meant to his parents and how important it was to have something else to fall back on just in case... so he did as his parents requested of him and in return he was able to build his flight time and gain ratings all through school. By his 4th year of college he had a nice logbook with about 350 hours and all his ratings but his CFI's.

Once he graduated, he got his first job in the field of his degree... and it was sooooo not what he was expecting. He wanted more out of life and decided to research what it would take to be an airline pilot. He found the Flying Joes 121 Transition Program and started looking into it further. It was expensive... but he had good credit and a few bucks in the bank. Mom and Dad even said they would help with the cost so long as he would return to his degree field if it didn't work out.

Todd signed up and thought it would be a piece of cake. But to Todd's surprise, it was harder than he thought. He showed up on day 1 not as prepared as he should have been. He had been sent some checklists, memory items, flight profiles, limitations, and flows, prior to the first day of the program that he was supposed to study and commit to memory. Needless to say Day 1 was a little rough on Todd. He realized just how important these things were... he buckled down and studied his arse off for the rest of the program.

Todd's time in the twin was quite an experience... his Twin experience prior to this was renting the FBO's ageing "almost un-airworthy" duchess around the patch, and for a few cross countries with friends to the nearby casinos. He was hesitant at first because although he was used to flying around the STL Bravo... that was all he knew. When he found out he was going to be flying into several major cities airspace including DC, Atlanta, Jacksonville, DFW, etc... he was both excited and nervous. Along the way he was able to sharpen his skills tremendously... he had to hand-fly all the time since there was no autopilot... he was no longer nervous about new airspace, and could fly an ILS better than he ever had before. He also learned so much more about CRM... He remembered one flight where they had to dodge some level 3's and shoot an approach in really choppy weather in very busy airspace. He was starting to get behind the curve when he remembered that there was someone else who could help him. He started using this person to his advantage and working as a team they landed safely. It was a lesson he'll never forget.

Todd's introduction to an all glass cockpit was quite a ride... it took several hours to get used to looking at the speed and altitude tapes, and develop a scan for glass gauges. Finally, it was becoming second nature and he was beginning to enjoy Glass.

Todd's next phase was like drinking water from a fire hose... systems ground school for the Jet FTD. He was glad he actually picked up the pace at the beginning of the program by actually buckling down and studying. He knew he would need it for this phase. He was right... the information just kept coming... His hands were cramped from taking notes... but the relief came when they would hop in the FTD and he could put some practical experience behind his newly found knowledge.

FMS, Electrical, Hydraulics, Pressurization, Fuel, Environmentals... Oh yeah... don't forget your limitations, flows, and memory items... and your set-up for the maneuvers... V1-Cuts, SE-ILS, SE-Non-Prec, Fire in Flight, Go arounds, aborted take-offs, loss of pressurization, electrical failures, CRM, etc... It was quite a training session. Jack was a check-airman for XYZ airlines and did Todd's sign off for his Jet FTD course. He was mildly impressed with Todd's flying and ability to handle the final "check ride". Todd was too... he felt as if he had accomplished more in 60 days than he had in his 4 years of college and flying together.

He was pleased to have received notice of an interview with XCS airlines 4 weeks after he finished the program. He talked to his parents a lot that week prior to his interview about his future... and with their support... he went on the interview.

He passed the interview and was offered a class date. On day one of Indoc... he met a really cool guy named Chuck... even though they were a decade apart in age... they had the same dreams, and aspirations. They decided to become Study and Sim Partners...

As luck (good or bad depending on your viewpoint) would have it... after Chuck and Todd had been flying the line for over a year with XCS Air... The industry took a down turn... Furloughs were on the way... however, for Todd, and Chuck... they were able to keep their jobs by missing the cut by about 100 numbers. Both of them tasting their first bitter flavor of the industry, still had a sigh of relief. Had they gone the more "traditional" route that they once had assumed was the only way... then they would have either been furloughed or not yet even hired at XCS.
 
The way I see it.

Yeah... OK... so I had bit of extra time on my hands... This is how I see it.

It's not as simple as calling it the Walmartization of the Industry when you see that there are real people involved, working hard to change their lives... even if they didn't do it the "Traditonal" way.

It's a fictional work, based on non-fictional events, schools, airlines, and people that I know... the names have been changed to protect the innocent! :)

Blast away if you must... but at least be aware that there is more to everything and everyone than meets the eye. We just can't go around making rash decisions about people who make life changeing decisions to persue their dreams and follow through with those dreams in successful manner without hurting the airline industry.

Either way... hope you enjoyed the light reading for a change, and maybe saw some of yourselves in parts of it.

Bob
 
Bob, way too much time on your hands. Believe it or not, I'm not an ATP hater. I did my CFII/MEI there. I have experienced 2 checkrides with Ernie...didn't know any better. Now I do. As far as ATP, I think it's a good school with a good record going in the wrong direction for the industry. I believe we discussed this program a few months ago when it came out and brought out the good and bad of it.
 
Yeah we did Tx... and I personally still wouldn't have done it due to my personal situation... but if you go back and review some of my EARLY posts with JC, you'll see where even I was asking about advanced training like Citation Types etc... being something decent to have on a resume.

I wasn't looking for a short cut... but looking at options.

Even though the program isn't for me... it's still very hard for me to see the detriment to the industry. All this talk about kickbacks, lowering pay, people being idiots for even considering a program like this tends to grate on my nerves a bit.

People will forever think that their way was the best way... and why not? We all want to think that the decision we made was the best. We just need to think that there are other people doing what's right for them and their families out there as well.

And until someone can show me documentation and hard numbers instead of a diatribe of speculation and opinion, as to how this type of "advanced training" is killing the industry simply because of a relationship between a reputable flight school and a growing regional... then I'll be here to argue the more "human" side.

That said... I'm sure there's a few of you guys out there banging your head on your screen going... "WTFO... Didn't Bob understand anything I said??" Well... yeah... If it makes ya feel any better... I'm doing the same thing on my end. ;)

Dude... and I'm sooooo sorry you had to put up with Ernie... Twice! Doh! ;)

Bob
 
"All these guys on this board that are new regional pilots or trying to get there would love to work for UPS...if you do actually work there"

Naw, you caught me, I'm really a poser...

I don't dislike ATP outside of them making deals with Pinnacle to sell a direct entry, low time, F/O program.

"Either way... hope you enjoyed the light reading for a change"

Naw, skipped right over it. Do you have a condesed version out yet? Anyhow, I think I understand your point. I simply disagree with it.
 
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