Pinnacle Interviews in Jacksonville, FL

[DE727UPS]

"I am sure a huge majority of guys that do the bridge or type programs are very immature in the cockpit"

Yeah...that's it. Of course, I say that in a non-judgemental sort of way.

 

[Captain_Bob]

The problem I see here is that you just dont know the caliber of the type or bridge pilots if they havent been a CFI. Flying with another CFI you know they've dealt with all good and bad situations.

So your aguement is based out of fear of the unknown?

I am sure a huge majority of guys that do the bridge or type programs are very immature in the cockpit. The guys that take flying very seriously study hard, are extremely professional in the cockpit, and take everything from taxiing to landing very serious are most likely better suited to handle an urgent situation. I think being a CFI builds maturity that many pilot lack inititially.

I can't expect that everyone read my long diatribe about different types of students that may attend a transition program. But C'mon... Folks continue to make biased assumptions about the type of student who enters this type of program. The facts are you don't know their experience, you don't know their maturity level, you don't know their CRM skill, you don't know how professional they are in the cockpit and airport environment.

Taking it one step further... As an instructor... for better or for worse, I never had the pleasure of flying with a new student pilot or soloing one... I regret that. That being said, approximately 30 students of mine were CFI's getting their Commercial multi add-on, MEI, II, or ATP. I'll tell you this... who you get in that seat next to you is a crap shoot. I've had CFI's try to kill me on what I affectionatly call an "NDE" approach (Near Death Experience) because they thought they knew better, and wouldn't give up control of the plane when they realized they were way too far behind. Or asking guys if they've studied the assignments that I requested of them... and getting a mild shrug of the shoulders and a smirk because the thought that they could get by... after all they were CFI's right??

Not the majority of my students... but you get the point.

Conversely... I've now flown with 5000-8000 hour guys who have been so far behind the 8-ball it wasn't funny. In my very first re-current PC, I was paired with a captain who by all outwardly appearances was a great guy. However, barely passed his oral because he didn't remember half of his memory items/limitations. Granted... he flew his profile like as if it were nothing... but to me that's just going through the movements of the same profile every 6 months. Now I'm wondering to myself... if he couldn't come up with half his memory items/limitations in a relaxed interview setting... what's going to happen in flight in the real situation. Based on that I'm sure guys like that are GREAT at CRM because they need to be to cover their own a**. Later on... I'm finding out that a lot of high timers don't study for the re-current anymore because they think they aleady know it...

Again... not the majority.. but hopefully again you see my point.

I'm not saying everyone that has low time will crumble under pressure, I'm saying it's LIKELY due to the lack of experience.

You're basing this on? Again... you have no basis other than your opinion based on your experience... I know your experience Kell (aviation related)... it's truly not that far off from mine. I can't say when someone will or won't crumble... I don't know if you can... but then again... I truly don't know your background, study habits, your flying skills, how you react under pressure, or if you have studied human behavior in an controlled setting allowing you to make an assumption like that... So, I'll concede that maybe you do know it's "LIKELY".

We need to stop judgeing people that we don't know, because we did things differently... and many of us newer FO's really need to take a step back here... Heck... I'm almost more willing to listen to Don more than myself sometimes because I know how little experience I still have in this industry.

That said... Let's just keep our minds open about not only new ways of flying... but also about our opinions of what type of people may take on this type of program, and whether or not those people are good/bad, professional/unprofessional, high-timers/low-timers, Career changers/or 21 year olds, By the book/or loosey goosey... etc... The fact is... we don't know... and we shouldn't be afraid of not knowing the experience and backgrounds of the other 10,000 people in the air... we would all go crazy if we let it get to us!

Bob

 

[DE727UPS]

"I was paired with a captain who by all outwardly appearances was a great guy. However, barely passed his oral because he didn't remember half of his memory items/limitations. Granted... he flew his profile like as if it were nothing..."

And you had a problem with that?

HAHA....here's a guy that knows what's important, in real life, vs what's important to get through recurrent. He's almost being willfully ignorant to make a point. He's putting practical ahead of "what's the wingspan of an RJ" or "what's the max taxi weight of an RJ"

This is my point. Good flying skills come from good background and experience. The guy almost busted cause he didn't care for the system. A system that makes silly stuff important while making important stuff, like experience, secondary. Learn those memory items and don't miss a word.

I can see this guy as one who knows what to do but misses "descent-accomplish" vs "descent-initate" memory item.

I'd bet he knew what to do in a Rapid D, whether he could spit it out to the instructors satisfaction or not. He's simply not paying respect to the system, as it is, while being kick butt in what's important.

Sorry for the diatribe, but being in the training process myself, at the moment, I kinda see where he might be coming from.

 

[meritflyer]

Without being there to see first hand, I'd say you have no insight to this situation. Do all Capts act like this? Maybe some do and some dont. All in all, a pretty broad generalization DE727.

Kell, I agree with your post 100%.

 

[Captain_Bob]

I'm finding out that a lot of high timers don't study for the re-current anymore because they think they aleady know it...

Ummm... I guess I was right on there...

Don... you're apolgizing for the diatribe... LOL! Have you read my posts lately... I should be the one apologizing for long datribes! oh.. wait... maybe you did that to guilt me into it... ahhhh... I see now why they call you the "master"....

Heck... I'm almost more willing to listen to Don more than myself sometimes because I know how little experience I still have in this industry.

I'm still learning!

 

[jtrain609]

I thought it was simple.

-Airlines want cheap labor
-If somebody is willing to pay for their own training costs, if only in part, it makes the labor cheaper
-This makes the airlines more money
-The airlines then realize that since there is at least one guy that is willing to cut their training costs for them, then there are probably droves
-Now airlines require that everybody pays for their training
-To entice people towards this, they hire with low mins
-Knowing that these pilots can't go anywhere and are locked in with either a training contract or huge debt from paying for said program, the company can now lower the pay rates as far as they want because they know that their pilots can't possibly quit the job and go somewhere else. Those pilots are now backed into a corner and kind of sold their soul to the "company store" eh?

So...ah...how doesn't that lower payrates?

Sorry Bob, didn't read the whole rant. Hell I didn't read most this thread. I'm just not seeing how these programs DON'T lower the bar. I'm not even talking about experience issues here as it relates to whether you should be a part 121 FO or not, I'm just talking about lowering payrates. If you are paid based on your experience level, and you don't have much experience, then your payrate will be lower eh? That seems pretty simple to me, and can be applied to almost any other industry. I mean I wouldn't want to pay a 600 hour pilot as much as I pay a 2,000 hour pilot, they are going to probably cost you more in training costs, and you've gotta recoup that cash somewhere.

Further, I think you should be REQUIRED to instruct before you get to any other flying job. I don't care if it's only for 100-200 hours. If you have not instructed then you don't have a clue why. If you have, you probably know why I feel that way. To me it doesn't matter what the excuse is, it should just be one of those requirements. If you don't like it, get out of the damned industry because if you can't hack instructing and being responsible for you and one other person, you have ZERO business being partially responsible for 50 people.

That might not be a popular opinion, but honestly I could give a ****. I learned more in my first 100 hours of instructing than I did in my first 300 hours of flying, including a lot of cross country's. All the pilots here I have tons of respect for (Bob, Kellwolf, DE727, txpilot, Brett, et all) all instructed and all of them but Brett have moved onto bigger and better things and tell me that instructing is an important step to take.

I tend to agree with them now that I'm instructing.

 

[MikeD]

You're basing this on? Again... you have no basis other than your opinion based on your experience... I know your experience Kell (aviation related)... it's truly not that far off from mine. I can't say when someone will or won't crumble... I don't know if you can... but then again... I truly don't know your background, study habits, your flying skills, how you react under pressure, or if you have studied human behavior in an controlled setting allowing you to make an assumption like that... So, I'll concede that maybe you do know it's "LIKELY".

Bob

I can tell pretty well when people are reaching their limit in the cockpit. Where I am, as an IP, I'm not even in the same aircraft with the other guy (all single-seaters....guy's first ride in the plane is a solo), so I'm judging the situation and essentially reading the mind of the guy in the plane while we're in another plane out in route, spread, or trail. Kind of like you've already alluded to, you develop a sense of what kind of product you're dealing with fairly soon after the mission brief; and can almost predict how things will go and when. Items such as the initial flight check-in, really set the tone for how the mission is going to go.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Good post overall John... especially for not actively reading the rest of the arguements (specifically my own!) LOL!

I'm going to say this, versus argue your first points on a point by point basis.

Previous background, hours, type of training received, etc... does not dictate your future payrate in the airline industry.

The fact is... and I know all you airline/cargo guys have heard this for years...

You are worth what you negotiate.

I'm just talking about lowering payrates. If you are paid based on your experience level, and you don't have much experience, then your payrate will be lower eh?

No... not in the airlines. Again... it's what the pilot group negotiates. What applies to other industries doesn't work in this one. IE: Your 600 and 2000 hour example at a regional... We had 600TT on one end of the spectrum in my indoc class, and an 8000TT on the other end. People are getting hired at CAL right now with 2500TT and no PIC Turbine... they are in class right next to an 8000TT RJ Captain and a 4500TT ex-freight dog. Same goes for Fedex, SW, UPS, etc... People are getting hired on with thousands of hours of difference in experience. For better or for worse... TT and experience doesn't lower the pay... pilots accepting concessions to their existing contracts does.

==

Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the fact that you CFI or not. I actually really like your idea of everyone instructing at least 100 hours.

But even it was a requirement for pilots to instruct at least a portion of their TT... other people would come on here and say... "But he only instructed for XXX hours... how could he possibly be safe!"

That's the type of attitude that I disagree with. We're all Type A's... I guess it's in our nature to argue what is best and how obvious it is. LOL! Can't you see... it's so obvious!

I can tell pretty well when people are reaching their limit in the cockpit.

Mike... in your situation you are makeing judgements based on knowing these guys... You've flown with them before, or instructed them... You know a bit of their background... hell you probably have access to their Psych files ... at the bare minumum... you briefed them... so you have some insight into these guys. Lately, most of the arguements on here regarding how safe or unsafe guys are in the cockpit are not based on that type of knowledge... simply opinions based on assumptions.

Bob

 

[Jason]

During my last few months at Pinnacle I would have paid $25K to LEAVE....I can't fathom anyone paying $25K to go there.

Jason

 

[Sodbuster]

Wow, this thread has become quite heated. Let me say my part, since I am a pompous ass who wants everyone to know my opinion (that's not a jab at anyone, it's just true). I did ATP's 90-Day program then instructed there. I've never been in favor of the Direct Track and now Transition Program. I just don't like the vibe I get from them. I'm glad I instructed there... my previous knowledge from working at a little FBO (mowing airport grass, helping mechanics with airplanes, and repairing tractors) was a great benefit to me once I started instructing since I could answer many questions students had about the airplane (especially engine stuff).

I loved instructing... and since we often find it hard to see things any other way than our own, I can't imagine doing it any other way. I learned a lot doing my 75 hours of cross-country time-building when I was in the career program, but I learned way more in 75 hours of instructing (yes, I did instruct for more than 75 hours!). I was asked in my interview what I learned from instructing... I said, "I learned what the term 'Pilot-In-Command' really means." She just smiled and said, "I know exactly what you mean." I think someone already summed up the whole IMC, student blowing through localizer, being told to keep speed up, etc. You just don't get that kind of experience by buying time. Plus, your personal PIC authority never really develops if you always have someone to turn to when things get rough.

I wouldn't tell someone not to go to ATP because of these programs... but I would definately tell them not to do this particular program.

 

[jtrain609]

Heya Bob,


This is easier in person, we've gotta hang out man!

The reason it lowers the bar is exactly why you stated; you are only worth what you can squeeze out of managment. Would you agree that these programs provide less leverage for the pilot group? Because that's how I see the issue. If the incoming pilots have less to offer on a whole (which is what I believe, I think instructing makes you one heck of a better pilot), then they have less leverage eh?

Or would you not agree with that? Because I think that's the point where everybody is getting hung up here.

 

[KLB]

Heya Bob,


This is easier in person, we've gotta hang out man!

:yeahthat:

This can be argued either way, but to throw something different on the fire........ How does the new hire really affect contract/pay negotiations with management when they are usually "just happy to be there"?

 

[Captain_Bob]

This can be argued either way, but to throw something different on the fire........ How does the new hire really affect contract/pay negotiations with management when they are usually "just happy to be there"?

Good question... I don't know how it is at other airlines... but I'm assuming it's similiar to ours. The fact is... Newhires don't directly affect contract/pay negotiations (at least at a Union place). During your first year of Probation you have no voting authority, and no "direct" protection of the union.

And to my knowledge... there haven't been any contracts negotiated for less pay simply because the airline was pressing the issue of low-timers, time builders, bridge programs, or Gulf Streamers, etc... The only time contracts have been negotiated for less pay is due to the concessionary issues surrounding wanting new planes to "be competative", attempts to stay out of bankruptcy, or actually trying to get out of bankruptcy.

As far as this topic becoming heated... I don't think it's ever been that. No one is really tossing out the exclamation points and ALL CAPS like they were candy. I think the posters in here have been super about attempting to explain their POV without it turning into a GS free 4 all.

And John... dude... we have to get together, so I'll second Kelvin's :yeahthat:

But, "me still thinks me smells a conspiracy", when you keep scheduling these get-togethers when I'm working! LOL!

Actually bidding weekends off now... so I'm mostly available on those days now.

Bob

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

In case you haven't checked ALLATPS Pinnacle webpage recently, THEY'RE ALL FILLED UP, and are NOT taking any more applications for those mid-May interview dates (for their conditional offer of employment program before you begin the CRJ Airline Transition course).

Obviously, there's an abundant supply of people out there wanting to pay a lot of money IF they get a conditional letter of employment. I think they find it attractive that if they dont pass the interview, they don't pay a dime (well, they get their $1500 deposity back).

Only if you pass the interview, get hired, receive the conditional letter of employment, THEN your $1500 deposit in non-refundable and pay the $25k for the program.

 

[meritflyer]

I have never heard of an airline trying to low ball anyone because they had a type or low time w/ bridge training. All though, it could be part of the evil airline conspiracy that is going on

.

Even the guys with the RJ training need to still eat. If they are that stupid to take 10-20% lower wages, the airline will be smart enough to pay them.

I keep going back to smarts. I dont care what your training is!!! If you are a dumb idiot that thinks pilots are worth $20 per hour for their whole career you should get the hell out of aviation!! Type rating, CFI, CP, bridge program grad, 152 pilot, 737 pilot or whatever .. you are worth atleast the cost of your education per year. If you had a type rating and took subpar wages, you are just plain dumb!

Professional aviators need to stand up, regardless of what their pilot certificate says, and let the airlines know WHAT WE ARE WORTH! Just because you blew 25-30K on a bridge program or type rating doesnt mean you are worth less!!! To think such is BS! You will still be doing the same job as any Joe Schmo that did something else to build time and a good resume.

A pilot is a pilot! A pilot is worth, in my opinion, no less than $30K their first, $40K their second and so on... Capts are worth double what FOs are (you do the math to my first figures).

 

[kellwolf]

I agree that pilots should be paid what they are worth based on their education, experience, etc. HOWEVER, we still have people lined up around the block willing to pay to go to Gulfstream or take a substandard wage job at places like GL just to get a foot in the door. I seriously doubt that if PCL (or XJT) lowered their mins to 250-300 and said "We'll only pay you $17/hr" there would be a shortage of applications. There are just too many pilots out there willing to do anything to get that airline job, even if it means slitting their own throats financially. Those are the guys that are "just happy to be here."

Onto wages negotiated, and I'm gonna be bitter and jaded on this, so bear with me. Most contracts are negotiated with people that are no longer dealing with 1st year pay. As a result, that is often not even a consideration during negotiations. It only becomes an issue when the captains realize the quality of their FOs has gone down b/c the low first year pay has failed to attract properly qualified candidates. Look no further than PCL for a prime example. NOW the negotiating committee is looking to raise 1st and 2nd year FO pay. As it is, we have some of the lowest in the industry, which is why a lot of pilots steer clear and hold out for XJT or Air Wisconsin. CHQ and Mesa are pretty much the same as us. In that way, I DO think that the quality of the applicants affects the pay, not just the negotiating committee.

John, love ya like a brother, but I have to disagree on one point. I don't think everyone should be made to instruct. You've seen people that shouldn't be instructing (and we might even be thinking of the same people), so just imagine everyone going through that. It wouldn't be fair not only to the CFI, but also unfair to the students. It's also a recipe for disaster if the CFI spaces out on the flight thinking about how much he hates his job. CFIing is just the most common way to build hours, but there are others out there that those people would be a better fit while building experience.

 

[cybourg12]

Ill put in my .02 cents. I did the ATP 90 ACPP, even instructed at ATP for a while. When I was a 300 hrs freshly new CFI, I was in the same boat as these guys thinking 500 hr guys are just as prepared for a 121 job as a 1000 hr cfi. after 300 hrs of dual given i see the benefit of teaching and gaining instruction hours. Ill take a 1000 hr guy any day over a 300 hr pilot even if the 300 hr guy has done nothing but fly ifr in a twin and the 1000 hr guy has done nothing but T&Gs in a 152. Kellwolf is right, low time guys means lower wages. Dont pay 25k for this ATP program of one like it, getting 800 hrs of instruction is worth more than you could ever believe, and you wont believe what I am saying until you actually do it.....you 300 hrs guys will argue with me until the end of the world on this. How is it that you have to have 1200 hrs to fly 135 in a baron but only 250 (or less) to sit right seat in an RJ? Id love to see a minimum hour requirement to be a 121 FO. But it will never happen and wages will continue to drop....

 

[meritflyer]

So by having a higher first year pay for FOs you attract better quality FOs or smarter FOs? Most low timers (500 or less) that have gone to ATPs program or even RAA Type Rating program end up at XJT, AWAC, or Eagle.
ATP and RAA have LOUs (letters of understanding) with both AWAC and XJT.

I still dont see why or how a guy with a type or bridge training "lowers" wages. I know there have been assumptions and examples here to help explain the phenomenon but I have to say they are only assumptions and opinions. There is no evidence to support RJ programs support lower wages. When you discuss the "quality of FOs" it seems as though you are speaking of all "new FOs" or RJ trained FOs. A bit of a generalization to me.

Higher training means lower wages? Doesnt make sense to me. In fact, it almost seems backwards. If a guy were to come in with a ERJ on his cert it would usually seem to me to pay him more for the additional training. If a engineer has more training, he usually makes more cash.
The economics of this argument just dont make sense. The immaturity of a young kid with a RJ type being a dumb ass, telling his friends he is an airline pilot, and wearing his spiffy uniform makes for a much better argument and explanation of why wages are lower.

Point being? If you are going to do a type, bridge, or RJ course be smart about it. Be a CFI first. Learn the basics of teaching and understanding. If you need a resume boost and have rich parents, by all means. This doesnt mean you have to take lower wages or • from anyone. Airlines prefer CFIs because they are ratings that take dedication. Dont take lower wages just because airplanes are cool. What a stupid concept (people paying or taking low low wages to fiddle with the controls of a jet and talk on the radios).

 

[meritflyer]

You are worth what you negotiate.

No... not in the airlines. Again... it's what the pilot group negotiates. What applies to other industries doesn't work in this one. IE: Your 600 and 2000 hour example at a regional... We had 600TT on one end of the spectrum in my indoc class, and an 8000TT on the other end. People are getting hired at CAL right now with 2500TT and no PIC Turbine... they are in class right next to an 8000TT RJ Captain and a 4500TT ex-freight dog. Same goes for Fedex, SW, UPS, etc... People are getting hired on with thousands of hours of difference in experience. For better or for worse... TT and experience doesn't lower the pay... pilots accepting concessions to their existing contracts does.

Bob

EXACTLY!

 

[cybourg12]

No one is saying that 1000 hr guys are SMARTER than 500 hrs guys....its up to the individual. I can take a private pilot with 50 hrs and put him through a CRJ ground school and tell him stuff like the CRJ has two IDGs supplying 115V to 6 AC buses and that the 10th stage bleed air system supplies air to the 2 packs located in the aft equipment bay. Hell, I can even teach him how to fly a single engine ILS profile......but all this and a "RJ Standards Certificate" doesnt make him a better canidate for a 121 job. What does an employer (in this case a Regional Airline) have to base new hire pay scales on? Experience...which in this industry in flight time....the less TT an applicant has, the less the airline has to pay the new hire. Get it? Too many others before me have worked and sacraficed so that pilots get paid what they deserve (more than 20k a year). If you want to be part of the group that brings FO wages below fast food wages...do the rest of us a favor and change careers. McDonalds is hiring and the pay is better. I need a beer....