zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Do what now?
Pinnacle has reached a TA!!!
- Thread starter blee256
- Start date
Do what now?
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Unless you run a proprietary PBS program, I'll bet the vendor (NAVTECH?) could write some program to differentiate between DH and flying. They're real smart computer nerds and all.
At the end of the day, garbage pairings will still make garbage lines.
pilotlight
Well-Known Member
Its got long call short call, there is a bucket list system but i am afraid about how and when they would impliment that one. You can only sit ready reserve 2 times a month and they add a hour of credit above gaurantee every time they do so. You can not go below 10 days for any reason at all. reserves cant be extended into days off. There are very specific rules about junior manning. Line holders do not have to check out. This is what i have heard.
:yeahthat:
You are smoking something good if you can try and justify having less than 100% DH pay. What do you think computer programmers do?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Is the ESCALATED to RR or SCHEDULED RR twice in a month? I'm normally looking at a min of 4-5 a month right now as it is. Also, is it an hour on top of credit when you're ESCALATED or SCHEDULED RR? So, you're looking at 77 hours of credit if they schedule you RR or are you looking at 75 hours of credit unless they move you from home rsv to rr. Little things like that can make a HUGE difference.
As for the 100% DH pay, would I rather have it? Hells yes, especially as much as us reserves get shuttled around the system. With dual qual, it's probably gonna be even worse. The question is, what would we have to give to get it? It's called "negotiations" for a reason. If we could just get what we wanted, it would be called a "demand" session.
Now, I'm betting there's a lot of guys reading this pretty sure that I've sold out and I'm just pushing the party line. Not at all. I'm just trying to take a realistic approach that tends to seem like a sell out approach compared to all the adamant "no" voters out there.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Sell out.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Or we need a massive change of the fee for departure process. Perhaps the regional feed is responsible for paying for the fuel etc. Get the flying back to mainline and not have to worry about fee for departure crap. So many waste the damn fuel because they do not pay for it.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
This would require a significant change in the business model of the regional.
I personally think that we (our respective companies) should be footing the bill for the fuel, but that comes with a couple conditions and impacts.
First, if we're paying for the fuel, we should be able to select and charge a fare which we have determined will provide a profit for the company. Not our mainline partner. While we're providing "lift" for said partner, if we're taking on the larger risk of managing fuel costs - we should be able to directly manage our ability to generate revenue through ticket prices.
Second, if we are paying for fuel and we're setting our price for our seats, then are we really then still "sub-contracted" lift? Or is it more of a codeshare allegiance with X, Y, and Z mainline partner.
Third, if we're not longer considered a sub-contracted lift provider, what motivation does the mainline partner(s) have in maintaining the relationship? If they lack the control over pricing, then I can't see them sticking around for the night cap.
So - that brings us back to the notion of paying for our own fuel. Which, I'm fine with, with the above conditions. But, those conditions could potentially lead to the end of the relationship.
In the end, I think it'd be best to say whoever is paying for the go-juice gets to determine the ticket prices. If that's the case, then the sub-contracted lift provider has the ability to utilize the free market to determine an appropriate fee per departure payment schedule to actually make money versus gaining market share like a certain regional company or they are able to dictate their own terms on ticket prices to generate direct revenue since they're managing the fuel costs directly.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Which returns the industry to pre-RJ business models.
I must say, thinking on it, the regional management that set up the fee-for-departure concept was on the ball. They obviously knew the unit costs were high on the RJ, so they insulated themselves.
Never looked at it from that perspective.
Cheap asses, yes......complete morons to setting up the fee-for-departure....not so much.
Oddly enough, I still work for a management-by-spreadsheet operation. They've turned a profit in the worst economy in years. And even announced an LOI for pax in the 2nd Q conference call.
Huh...
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
I owe you one solid slap to the face for the non-100% dhd justification... as well was whatever @$$tard gave you that explaination.
non-100% dhd pay makes it easier for Pinnacle to dhd you to the ends of the earth in said DC-9's. Absolutely stupid....
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Hey, man. It made sense to me, and knowing our PBS system the way I do, it still makes sense. Take it or leave it. The pairing generator sucks, which is what allows PBS to screw us so badly. A more up to date pairing generator (as in one that will actually generate pairings in like under a week without causing the server to smoke) would supposedly "cost to much." As an example, before the PBS guys started tweaking the pairings, it was DHing guys to an outstation to pick up a flight back into the hub. The way they had to fix it was to generate 4 hours sits in MSP or DTW. Otherwise, the damn thing had you DHing to FNT, sitting there for 2 hours and coming back to DTW. What we NEED is better control of pairings and PBS.
As for the explanation, it was one of the negotiators that gave it to me, for what it's worth. Just for comparison, which other regionals other than XJT have 100% DH pay?
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Skywest, for one. I know Eagle was 50% and I think Republic is 75%, but I'd be interested to know about others...anyone know about Colgan, Horizon, Comair, Mesaba, AWAC?
100% DH pay has been absolutely huge for me the few times I've been on reserve. The first month I was here it was the difference between 75hr guarantee and like 95hrs after breaking it.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Kell, we need to chat. There are 2 sides to a story- next time you are off I need to "show" you some things....
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Eagle is now 75% of block.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Colgan DH pay is 50% of block.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
This is the kind of crap that gives unions a bad name. Your goal shouldn't be to put the company out of business; your goal should be a new contract.
Real question:
Do you think it's better to beat your chest and vote down a decent TA and spend another 1-2 years in negotiations to achieve a marginally better deal, or accept the decent TA now?
It's not unlikely for anyone to get released (it's actually pretty likely that one or two passenger carriers will get released in the next year or two), but it is highly unlikely that Pinnacle would get released in the near future after rejecting a decent TA. The economy isn't the issue, as someone else pointed out, the issue is reasonability. If the NMB believes that a group is being unreasonable, they aren't going to release you. The purpose of the RLA and the NMB is to get two sides to reach a deal. An unreasonable party is just as unlikely to reach a deal after self-help as they are before it, so they see no need to release you if you are being unreasonable in their eyes. I'll remind everyone of a direct quote from the NMB when XJT's negotiators were demanding $100,000 for 5-year Captains:
"Come back to us when you've stopped smoking crack."
Thank God someone is thinking over there.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
I think it's quite obvious who we don't want negotiating for the Pinnacle pilots in the next round of negotiations. Sorry Steve but accepting substandard contract items because of a computer program is just wrong. Accepting 10 days off.... wrong.
I hope someone comes up with a sticker that says something to the affect of "don't blame me, I voted No! on contract 2005/2009"
Todd, it's disappointing to see a union official with a stance that basically tells me we can't achieve fair work rules. I'd love to grab a beer and find out the finer points, but I'm also shocked to hear the NMB tell a negotiating team "they're smoking crack" with fair rates.
You know what, I'd say maybe the union should ask for more than they expect pay wise to help "negotiate" the work rules. Or sacrifice top Captain pay to help the FOs out.... don't drop it, just negotiate COLA so that Joe can fly his glider around more often.
:insane: This TA, if what I'm "hearing" is true, seems to have been a 5 year wasted effort. I hope that if I can ever get on with a major, I join a club thats got an MEC with balls to tell the company to shove it with crap contracts.
I hope someone comes up with a sticker that says something to the affect of "don't blame me, I voted No! on contract 2005/2009"
Todd, it's disappointing to see a union official with a stance that basically tells me we can't achieve fair work rules. I'd love to grab a beer and find out the finer points, but I'm also shocked to hear the NMB tell a negotiating team "they're smoking crack" with fair rates.
You know what, I'd say maybe the union should ask for more than they expect pay wise to help "negotiate" the work rules. Or sacrifice top Captain pay to help the FOs out.... don't drop it, just negotiate COLA so that Joe can fly his glider around more often.
:insane: This TA, if what I'm "hearing" is true, seems to have been a 5 year wasted effort. I hope that if I can ever get on with a major, I join a club thats got an MEC with balls to tell the company to shove it with crap contracts.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm not telling you that you can't. You certainly can. What I'm saying is that you will have to wait if you want to see improvements beyond the TA. It's a simple question: are you willing to spend another 1-2 years negotiating to possibly get what you want? If the answer is yes, then by all means, vote NO! Democracy is a beautiful thing. I just don't want you to think that you'll magically get a better TA in a couple of months if you vote this one down. It just ain't gonna happen. In fact, you probably won't even be back at the bargaining table in a couple of months after voting down this TA. Prepare for the really long haul.
Is $100k at year 5 a "fair" rate for an ERJ Captain? Depends on your definition of "fair." I think it's certainly deserved, but when no one else in the industry makes anything even approaching that, it's not a reasonable position to take. With that said, the unprofessionalism of the NMB's comment at the time was indicative of the Bush NMB. That sort of thing won't happen now, but they will respectfully tell you that they'll have to park you for a little while if you aren't behaving reasonably.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
We have a P2P call tonight and will be talking about the TA. I will remain quiet about what I have read, but the details (good, bad, indifferent) will come out and each pilot will need to take the responsibility of passing their good/bad vote to their MEC rep. Some bases have bigger political hurdles than others... but lets not go down that road.