Pinnacle has reached a TA!!!

All I've heard is crew room gossip and talked to one of the negtiators for about 20 minutes yesterday. I see a LOT of people up in arms over what they've "heard." Some of these people doing the talking are even the ones that are sure we've got more -900s coming for Delta. I'm willing to give it a shot and read what's in it. I'll decide accordingly. If the "pros" outweight the "cons," I'll vote "yes." If it's the other way around, I'll vote "no." Honestly, if the insurance premiums double over the life of the contract.....I'm still paying less for full family coverage than I was at SWA as a ramper. It's going on the "con" side of the list, though.

I hate to be the bearer of reality, but anyone that expected higher -900 rates might have been a little over the moon. They were just set a couple of years ago, and prior to XJ's snap backs were considered pretty good. Now all of a sudden, they're considered sucky.

Rex, don't hold your breath on a strike. Talk to ZC, PH or SE and ask what the NMB hinted at on Tues. It has something to do with a 10% unemployment rate and how it would look if the government allowed a group to strike with that out there. It's pure politics, and we're caught in the middle. If we vote this one down (and if it's a bad deal, we SHOULD), be prepared for another year of negotiations instead of burning the house down or walking.

For me, I'm mainly gonna be looking at reserve work rules. We REALLY need some improvements there, and after going on a year and a half of being beaten like a slave tied to a whipping post, I'm ready for some kind of change.
 
I heard that for dual qual they are going to have around 70 dual qual vancancies per base where those people would be paid 900 rates for everything they do and would be the only ones typed on both planes. Meanwhile reserves are going to still have 10 days off. There are a lot of improvements to the scheduling section but if this dual qual thing is true my feelings are that alpa senior guys selling out the junior guys once again..
 
pilotlight said:
I heard that for dual qual they are going to have around 70 dual qual vancancies per base where those people would be paid 900 rates for everything they do and would be the only ones typed on both planes. Meanwhile reserves are going to still have 10 days off. There are a lot of improvements to the scheduling section but if this dual qual thing is true my feelings are that alpa senior guys selling out the junior guys once again..
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That's sorta what I heard. Honestly, it DOES sound a lot like the senior guys driving the bus over the junior guys. Same story, different airline, I guess. Honestly, the dual qual wouldn't affect me (unless it causes displacements). It could be 100 slots in each base, I wouldn't have the seniority to hold it. :)

One thing I think we can all agree on, this P2P call on Sat is probably gonna break the record as the longest call. I know I've already got a list of things to ask. Dual qual is right at the top.
 
kellwolf said:
That's sorta what I heard. Honestly, it DOES sound a lot like the senior guys driving the bus over the junior guys. Same story, different airline, I guess. Honestly, the dual qual wouldn't affect me (unless it causes displacements). It could be 100 slots in each base, I wouldn't have the seniority to hold it. :)

One thing I think we can all agree on, this P2P call on Sat is probably gonna break the record as the longest call. I know I've already got a list of things to ask. Dual qual is right at the top.
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I could maybe look past the fact we're not close to ASA rates for the -900 if the reserve rules in the TA were better.

But we really need to start demanding fair pay for both planes. $40/hr second year as an FO is just a start.

Look at these rates long and hard. We can't say we're going to pattern bargain and help raise the standard if these aren't the rates we achieve. If we get less, then ASA guys will have trouble justifying these rates the next go around. Great job team.... return to base for debrief and cocktails.

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Current bottom feeding pay rates

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cencal83406 said:
But we really need to start demanding fair pay for both planes. $40/hr second year as an FO is just a start.
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I think you need to be a bit more realistic. 2nd year pay at what most are barely at at 5 year pay and Mesaba doesn't even top out at as far as FOs go is reaching a bit. If you had said $36-37, I'd be willing to go with ya since it's a step up. Key here is to STEP things up. If you shoot to jump the whole staircase, you're gonna wind up giving up an awful lot. Sure, we could probably get $40/hr FO rates at second year, but we'd probably have to give up health care AND 401k to get there.

I'm all for raising the bar, put we're not doing the high jump here.
 
Rhetorical question:

Do you believe regional management has more/less to lose in this economy than the pilots?
 
FlyChicaga said:
Rhetorical question:

Do you believe regional management has more/less to lose in this economy than the pilots?
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More to lose.

If I put my company out of business, I'll sneeze and go about daily life. It'll take a bit to get some hours together to get another flying job, but heck, that's the cost.

I'm ready to STFD, are you?

ps. not fair to ask a rhetorical question on a forum where the point is to reply ;)
 
P2P hat is coming off.... This is how "I" view any contract.

1. Protect your job (scope)
2. Protect your family time (scheduling/pref bid)
3. Protect your family (insurance)
4. Protect your enjoyment of job/QOL while at work (sched/reserve rules)
5. Provide for your family (pay)
6. Ability to create a future (401K)
7. Security blanket (LTD, STD *short term disability for you foul minders*, life insurance, loss of license, and FMLA/COBRA language)


As a personal level I believe in the 60% of FO to CA rates. A professional should be able to clear $30K in year 1, $35K in year 2, and $40K in year 3. From that point pay rates keep up with the average 3% a year until you upgrade or retire. Thats most industries with CBA's, private, or corp structure. The -900 rates need to be a little higher than my figures (roughly 10% for the larger equip).

Look at contracts from 10-15 years ago.... we are nowhere close while operating jets that are the replacement jets to the original RJ's (D9-10/30/40/50).

The notion that we all need industry average and can't rock the boat with industry leading is faulted in the current arena. Why? The largest cost operator is the first to get hit on CONCESSIONARY contracts when the economy BEGINS a contraction. That time has come and gone for contracts since we can't go lower! As we raise the bar, the bar overall gets raised- if not, we never get raises higher than a COLA. It will take only one or two pilot groups to stand a hard line before the industry "bar" is raised.
 
cencal83406 said:
More to lose.

If I put my company out of business, I'll sneeze and go about daily life. It'll take a bit to get some hours together to get another flying job, but heck, that's the cost.

I'm ready to STFD, are you?

ps. not fair to ask a rhetorical question on a forum where the point is to reply ;)
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I am READY to strike, just as you are, but it's a loaded gun NOT to be waved around as a solution. The threat is why it is powerful, once a firefight begins both sides lose something. We have talked on the phone and I know you want the best- which I agree with you conceptually in most areas- but read the TA when it comes out and call up your ATL reps and tell them how you feel and the areas you are concerned about, in addition to the areas that you actually like. The MEC gets the vote- not if THEY like the whole deal, but if the WHOLE DEAL is good for the pilots they represent. There are many times the reps don't agree with something PERSONALLY, but the "calls of desire" from the pilots they represent drive them to push it through, or smack it down if the pilots tell them to. Unfortunately alot of this is political (when it should be displayed facts and the most logical decision based on facts), but don't get me started- I hate politics.

Call your reps and tell them how you feel- just be professional...:beer:
 
Seriously guys... 10 days off for reserves? Prior to having Pinnacle management do our schedules at CJC we could get 11 or 12 days off all depending on how they built the schedules. Now we get 10 days off because our "FOPPM says thats the minimum you get without extra pay." 10 days off sucks sitting reserve! No commutability for those that need it. That right there would qualify me for a no vote.
 
wheelsup said:
AWAC min days off has been 12 for oh, the last decade or so. Good job Pinnacle!!
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Awac has also lost all of its united flying, displaced everyone out east, and become a fleet of 50 seat jets that will never grow. Is it AWAC's pilots fault for not giving in? No I respect them for keeping an awesome contract but I believe you have to look at the big picture. If you are the best, The mainline carrier will always gun for you first (comair) Its better in my opinion to get yourself inline with everyone else and improve the important stuff. Pinnacles work rules actually do provide more days off for the line holders than any other regional. Our top half of the seniority list averages 17 days off a month i would say. The top guys get 20-21 days off each month. Its the reserves that get nailed here. The scheduling section has great improvements but 10 days off for reserves is still in there. You will never go below 10 days off like they can do to you now, and there is long call and short call, but its still 10 days off.
 
This is exactly right. And why the ALPA way of "jacking up the house" one side at a time just won't work in our niche of the airline industry. We need one contract for all fee for departure carriers stipulating pay/work rules for all aircraft. Yet the pro-ALPA folks just can't see that. Also 99% of the pro-ALPA guys are at their own branded carrier.

AWAC pilots have screwed themselves in the long term, unfortunately.
 
wheelsup said:
This is exactly right. And why the ALPA way of "jacking up the house" one side at a time just won't work in our niche of the airline industry. We need one contract for all fee for departure carriers stipulating pay/work rules for all aircraft. Yet the pro-ALPA folks just can't see that. Also 99% of the pro-ALPA guys are at their own branded carrier.

AWAC pilots have screwed themselves in the long term, unfortunately.
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As a guy who likes ALPA overall I see this as a true need, just as I could see a national seniority list being good- unfortunately I just don't see it happening and IF it did the business model of how each carrier would grow or make more money would change. The only cost differences are labor and direct operating costs dependent on markets. It's very expensive to operate in the NE, where in the south it may be rather cheap. :cool:

I see no reason as to why we can't at least set MINIMUM standards at the national level and let free market enhance contracts at each individual carrier. :pirate:
 
wheelsup said:
This is exactly right. And why the ALPA way of "jacking up the house" one side at a time just won't work in our niche of the airline industry. We need one contract for all fee for departure carriers stipulating pay/work rules for all aircraft. Yet the pro-ALPA folks just can't see that. Also 99% of the pro-ALPA guys are at their own branded carrier.

AWAC pilots have screwed themselves in the long term, unfortunately.
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I'm as pro-ALPA as the next guy....but I do agree w/ that. This would be, albeit small, a step in the right direction to ending the current 'race to the bottom.'
 
Screaming_Emu said:
ALPA did it...so of course he thinks its good. ALPA can do no wrong!
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Is it not like a team though. You can only be as good as your weakest member? Perhaps we cannot judge this TA until it is presented to their pilot group and thus they share the information with us.
 
10 days off min sucks. BUT, I'm not gonna vote "no" on one issue. I see too many people willing to shoot themselves in the foot over that. I actually got a really good explanation of why 100% DH pay won't work with PBS. If you desire credit (or in PBS's case it WANTS to assign it to you), you're gonna wind up in the back of a DC-9 going from MEM-DTW, doing trips out of DTW and DH home at the end of it. Why? B/c that 2:05 DH credits 2:05 and would bump actual flights under PBS rules. Made sense to me. 100% cancellation is a MUST, and it's in there. 15 minute rule is also gone, so bring on the de-icing, holding and ground stops.

I want to see what the ready reserve language is before I start ranting on the lack of 10 days off. Nevermind the fact that 10 days off for me would be an IMPROVEMENT over what I've been getting the past several months. (with JMs and extensions, I'm getting 8-9 days off now). Under the TA, they couldn't touch me on the 10 days. Question is, will we still be able to swap RSV days if we don't get a day off we requested in PBS. I kinda like having the comp days in RSV in case PBS screws me, but I'll take the 10 hard days off first.

Are there provisions for bidding for reserve in seniority order or is it still left up to scheduling to randomly assign who they want for what reserve shift? What about reassignment for reserves? Do we still have to check out, or if we get assigned a trip, are we classed as a lineholder for that trip, meaning we can just cruise out the door?

On the dual qual, I've heard rumors of a ratio like 3:1 or 4.5:1, but I don't know what it means. How is this gonna affect or staffing? Will it trigger downgrades or furloughs? I'm also a little confused on the pay rate, but from what I heard the other day, it sounds sorta like what XJT had for the long jet/short jet rates.

A lot of people jump on the "THIS SUCKS! I'M VOTING NO!" bandwagon before they even ask questions like those. Emotions do zero good in voting procedures. Read it, and if you don't like it, vote "no." Personally, I think it's asinine to vote "no" over a single issue, but that's just me.

As for striking, we'd need to get released from the NMB for that to happen. After talking to one of the negotiators, they seemed to make it clear it was HIGHLY unlikely for us or anyone else to get released. Yeah, Amerijet got released, but they aren't a 1300 pilot passenger airline, either. If the TA gets voted down, those that think the NMB is gonna release us may be in for a rather rude awakening. It will likely be another year or so of status quo rather than STFD. That being said, I don't wanna pass a turkey of a TA just because, either.
 
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