It's clutter. You're welcome to keep volumes of paper on your side. Everything we do is electronic, no need for paper on the pedestal where it needs to be moved everytime we change a frequency or input something on the center ACARS.
Opinions
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
- Start date
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
We fly our 737s with the Sys button pushed so the secondary engine instrument gauges go in compact display up top, and the bottom screen only shows the hydraulic info. Since the hydraulic info is at the top and only 2 lines of info, this screen becomes a nice place holder for printout if ATIS, gate info, etc.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of a rhetorical question a CA posed to me not too long ago. In the MAX, why do we always keep the ENG display on the CA side, rather than moving it to perhaps the PF (or I'd argue PM) side? It swaps over easily. Maybe easier than re-compacting the NG ENG display after you swap AC busses from ground to APU gen.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Captain centric airline. Our training department can't get away from this mentality.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The FH states something like “normally on” the CA side. As a CA, I like the consistency. If I need to look at the engine gauges, I’d like them to be in the same spot each time, every time.
Some FOs on the MAX transfer it to their side for engine start. I don’t get it. It’s not that hard, but whatever. Inflight though, they’ll stay on my side. I’ve had a couple FOs complain about not having the engine gauges on their side, and how it’s too far when they’re flying. I also don’t understand that. Personally I think I’d rather be focused on the airspeed, airspeed trend, AOA needle/green band, and LOC/GS diamonds, and outside reference, instead of what N1s or EGTs are showing. But to each his own.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
That's fair too. The argument itself is pretty small potatoes, so it really doesn't matter......I can easily look the extra 6 inches to the left or whatever it is, not like the view is obscured either way. I agree that one should be more concerned with the other displays than that one, generally. And it allows me unfettered access to my giant ND (even with VSD called up). But I do think you could make the argument for it being a PF vs PM setting as well.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I find it annoying when the N1s aren’t where I’m used to seeing them on approach. From an almost empty 700 freighter to no empty seat and 12K gas on a 900ER, there is an N1 setting that will give you an exactly right approach speed. There’s no reason to have it on the PMs side on landing. In fact it’s reducing the real estate for important information for the PM.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I just don’t see how N1 settings should matter that much on your final approach. Yeah, I know ball park figures. But I’m not concentrating on nailing any one particular N1 % value. It’s gonna depend on the winds, gusts, how the plane is reacting, etc.
Just IMHO… assuming a stabilized approach that’s on LOC/GS, the airspeed itself, the airspeed trend, and AOA green band are far better indicators of where you need the power to be.
Do you at least let them set up their GoPo on the windscreen so they can film all the cool and extremely exciting stuff that happens during the course of an airliner flight?
Sir, this is a Waffle House!
Serioiusly, I would murder a copilot for doing that. LCP or not
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I borrowed this toy "camera" from my 4 yr old. It is on the end of a pencil, and it makes a flash/shutter noise when you press its button. I hand it to the CA if I am PF, and I tell them to take silly pics, pics when I'm being naughty, pics when I'm living my best life, bougie pics. It doesn't actually take pics, but I can tell they get a kick out of it. Makes them feel like paparazzi with a celeb.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
She caught that chair midair like a champ!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Easiest way to fly a jet is on fuel flows. The same fuel flow will give you the same indicated airspeed at any altitude, but the N1 value will change.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Why have it on the PM side? What benefit would it give the crew? It’s reducing real estate for useful PM inputs like VSD, inputs from radar, the NAV display. Things the PM should at least be referencing while the PF is looking through a straw, hand flying on final approach.
It’s a helpful trend indicator for the PF and is giving me direct feedback on energy state of the aircraft.
The decision to make it a captain only thing directly contradicts our own training departments philosophy on the importance of PM. It’s just another item on the that’s how we’ve always done it list.
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That is interesting, I've never paid much attention to fuel flows, pretty much ever. How much do they vary based on weight?
Hell I don't even look at N1 much either. Auto throttles make ya lazy. Once stabilized I just adjust thrust as required if we get a positive or negative trend. Now that I have a HUD I look at AOA and speed trend on approach. In cruise and top of climb, AOA and margin.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Like, the weight is going to vary the IAS though right? Otherwise mathematically I’m stumped here.
Are you saying “for a given weight” or across the board whether empty or at gross Xlbs per hour = Y IAS?
Never was a jet guy.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I guess I’m not seeing your point. You sound like you rely heavily on the N1 gauges during approach.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
You're not seeing my point at all. Not sure this is worth it because you can be so obtuse sometimes, but I'll try again:
For the PF the N1 is something that can be referenced on approach. For me it's a handy secondary indicator of the energy state of the aircraft. It's not of primary importance but it is relevant data for the PF.
There is no point in the PM referencing N1, unless their goal would be to micromanage the PF. In that case the HUD would give them better trend data to browbeat the PF. In fact, the engine gauges take up 1/2 of the space available on the MFD. If anything, it is a detriment to the information the PM should be referencing when the PF is hand flying.
So again: why put the engine gauges on the PM's side during approaches? Again, its contrary to the training department's philosophy on the importance of the PM duties.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
There is no PM side. On the MAX, the engine gauges stay on the CA side. Doesn’t matter who’s PM or PF. And because the engine gauges are on my side, I’m the one who deals with the smaller screen VSD/radar/terrain display. Not your problem when you’re flying, I can back you up as PM just fine.
If you’re flying and I’m PM, your comment on “no point about me referencing N1 gauges” isn’t accurate. As a CA, I’d like the engine gauges inflight to be in the same position each time, every time. Not sure why that’s hard to comprehend.
But watch, a bunch of whiney complainers will get it changed and then “stick it” to the CAs.
Woe be the offended FO. Captain centric airline? You’ve never heard of AA then. The CA there does the before takeoff FA be seated PA.
When I transitioned to the Boeing, on the whiteboard there was a list of 5 things FOs find annoying about CAs. #1 was of course micromanaging. But either #3 or #4 was “CA shows up too early.”
Wow, that took me back, as a VX guy. I don’t see this place being a CA centric airline. The FO I’d actually given a lot of power and responsibility. Much more than at a place like AA.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Do you see a lot of guys show up at D-20? Blows my mind that everyone just doesn't have to arrive together at show time.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
When you're not flying, you're on the PM side. Unless you think you're simultaneously the PF and PM. Which isn't good. For a lot of reasons and says quite a bit about how you conduct yourself and where you sit on the CRM spectrum.
You do realize that "on the MAX, the engine gauges stay on the CA side" is entirely because someone decided that in the training department? It's totally possible to just put the N1s on the FOs side when they are flying? You just push a button and boom, the gauges can be on whatever side you want. You're referencing an arbitrary in house AS rule, when we are discussing the reasoning of the very same rule. Which is probably your most common infantile quality.
2 posts above you said I'm probably referencing the N1s too much and on this post you're now saying you need to reference N1 when you're not even the one flying the aircraft. There is a litany of trend data on the HUD but you also have to have the N1s in the same place every time? You realize that all the trend information on the HGS is partly derived from the auto throttle computer? The AT Mode, Thrust Limit and N1 are already incorporated into what you're seeing on through the HGS.
Yet you insist you need to see it on your MFD. Mind you I said it was annoying that I have to look across the cockpit to see the same N1s that I'm used to seeing in a difference space. It's not the end of the world and I'm pointing out that the rule is arbitrary and has no definitive reasoning for why it must be on the left side.