Oh SWA…how many is this?

[Roger Roger]

One would think the maintenance crew wouldn't be on the runway 3 minutes before it opened. Why wait until the last minute?

Runway inspection, if you put a gun to my head and forced me to make a guess

 

[CFI A&P]

We need to be reminded that the airport grass is being mowed on every atis from April-October

That’s for hay fever awareness, not anything pertinent to operating aircraft. This NOTAM brought to you by Benadryl.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well, as a CA I will tell you I welcome any speaking up. In the heat of stuff going wrong or when we get saturated it is hard to keep a clear mind and recognize when somebody needs a safety pause. I LOVE it when an FO tells me they need a minute. I try to ask if anyone needs a safety pause when crap is hitting the fan but if I forget I really love it when an FA or FO says that they feel uncomfortable, unsafe, or feel rushed about anything and everything.

Can I take a safety paws?

 

[MikeD]

One would think the maintenance crew wouldn't be on the runway 3 minutes before it opened. Why wait until the last minute?

Closed is closed. One would think that the prudent thing to do would be to wait until tower opened, then query ground/tower on whether the runway is formally open yet or not. Of course, you’d have to be up on freq in the first place in order to do that. I guess they didn’t notice any other aircraft taxiing out for departure, going to the other runway either.

 

[///AMG]

Closed is closed. One would think that the prudent thing to do would be to wait until tower opened, then query ground/tower on whether the runway is formally open yet or not. Of course, you’d have to be up on freq in the first place in order to do that. I guess they didn’t notice any other aircraft taxiing out for departure, going to the other runway either.

As some UK based F-15 dudes loved to say on base radio during a Tyndall missile shoot we shared with them: "Ready to blast!!"

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Thank you for choosing Southwest Airlines. We know you have a choice in airlines, and you clearly made the wrong one…”

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Like the yet another memo about auto brakes?

I arrived at yet another aircraft with hot brakes to start my latest trip. They were smoking but within limits. I have no idea how one gets the brakes that hot. I regularly do the post flight in outstations and I can put my hands on the brakes because they are barely warm. When doing the walk around I’m regularly seeing smoking or brakes fart too hot to touch. This time the brakes were 419C and the limit is 425C.

The training department needs to focus on practical issues and clear easy to understand language or this will continue. In my opinion it’s pretty bad and needs to change. To me at least it’s quite embarrassing.

 

[bimmerphile]

I arrived at yet another aircraft with hot brakes to start my latest trip. They were smoking but within limits. I have no idea how one gets the brakes that hot. I regularly do the post flight in outstations and I can put my hands on the brakes because they are barely warm. When doing the walk around I’m regularly seeing smoking or brakes fart too hot to touch. This time the brakes were 419C and the limit is 425C.

The training department needs to focus on practical issues and clear easy to understand language or this will continue. In my opinion it’s pretty bad and needs to change. To me at least it’s quite embarrassing.

dang yall have brake temp gauges? its been a disconcerting change coming from the bus, especially while using max brakes on quick successive flights every leg thru the islands

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

dang yall have brake temp gauges? its been a disconcerting change coming from the bus, especially while using max brakes on quick successive flights every leg thru the islands

No the brakes were smoking. Before I had even gone down to the ramp one of the rampers had called MX. They use a handheld heat gauge to measure the temperature of the brakes.

Just using auto brakes reduces the temperatures quite a bit since the braking is more even and therefore energy is spread out through all 4 wheels.

Speaking with the MX guy we were lucky the brake pads were brand new pads and they could absorb more energy than nearly done pads.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Also the temperature was probably measured in F not C. My bad.

 

[Inverted]

I arrived at yet another aircraft with hot brakes to start my latest trip. They were smoking but within limits. I have no idea how one gets the brakes that hot. I regularly do the post flight in outstations and I can put my hands on the brakes because they are barely warm. When doing the walk around I’m regularly seeing smoking or brakes fart too hot to touch. This time the brakes were 419C and the limit is 425C.

The training department needs to focus on practical issues and clear easy to understand language or this will continue. In my opinion it’s pretty bad and needs to change. To me at least it’s quite embarrassing.

It is embarrassing. Especially coming from the Airbus training department to the 737 side and seeing how it is taught. We are getting hot brakes in places that we literally don't need to use brakes at. It isn't an issue you can simply pin on new FOs either. The TPC includes what autobrakes if any, what flaps setting, and what the intended runway exit is. Both experienced and inexperienced crewmembers are having these issues and you would think that threat would be trapped in the TPC if a newer FO was talking about using autobrakes MAX and exiting asap in a place like PHX, LAS, ABQ and the CA could use that as a mentoring moment about energy and brake usage. With these issues still happening it makes me feel like this is a systemic training issue where those in charge of this stuff, don't have a fantastic understanding of how to teach a practical and operational understanding of brake usage on the line.

The other side of the coin was when we were going through the merger, a HUGE point of contention was parking brake usage at the gate. VX took the parking brake off after chocks in to help cool the brakes between flights. I think a lot of us remember the big floor fans we used to use in places like LAS too lol. Taking the brakes off and getting some space between the disc and pads helped cool the brakes quicker. Also, releasing the parking brake takes the pressure off the disc to help cool by taking two hot things (pads and discs) and removing them from each other.

The third side of the coin is that without temp sensors, we can't really learn what keeps these brakes cool, and what heats them up unnecessarily and/or too quickly. We can read about it, we can have an LCA sorta try to explain it but without seeing our actions in almost real time, the learning over time can't really occur as it isn't something you really even think about. Before these hot brake issues, the only real concern was exceeding QTAW in terms of something affecting the operation and that has NOTHING to do with brake usage. We don't think about brakes on the 737 until QTAW is exceeded or they are glowing like Chornobyl. Somehow SWA can quick turn in BUR all day long and twice on Sunday, and we can't bring a plane into PHX without taking an hour+ delay and cooking the brakes.

 

[pljenkins]

I arrived at yet another aircraft with hot brakes to start my latest trip. They were smoking but within limits. I have no idea how one gets the brakes that hot. I regularly do the post flight in outstations and I can put my hands on the brakes because they are barely warm. When doing the walk around I’m regularly seeing smoking or brakes fart too hot to touch. This time the brakes were 419C and the limit is 425C.

The training department needs to focus on practical issues and clear easy to understand language or this will continue. In my opinion it’s pretty bad and needs to change. To me at least it’s quite embarrassing.

Where are you guys landing where you're smoking the brakes to limits? This sounds like a pilot training issue. We routinely get hot brakes in Denver, but for crissakes you've got 5 miles or runway out there. You could practically roll to a stop without touching the brakes before the end! No reason to get on the binders above 80 knots.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I arrived at yet another aircraft with hot brakes to start my latest trip. They were smoking but within limits. I have no idea how one gets the brakes that hot. I regularly do the post flight in outstations and I can put my hands on the brakes because they are barely warm. When doing the walk around I’m regularly seeing smoking or brakes fart too hot to touch. This time the brakes were 419C and the limit is 425C.

The training department needs to focus on practical issues and clear easy to understand language or this will continue. In my opinion it’s pretty bad and needs to change. To me at least it’s quite embarrassing.

It’s sheer stupidity. Initially using full reverse with no AB gets an equivalent decel of AB 3. Touching the brakes now sends the decel carrot to the equiv of AB MAX. Or even beyond.

Both the 320 and 737, the function of AB is decel rate. Once a pilot understands that, there really shouldn’t be any prolonged brakes on speed in the high(er) speed regime unless it’s short/contaminated.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Just using auto brakes reduces the temperatures quite a bit since the braking is more even and therefore energy is spread out through all 4 wheels.

Speaking with the MX guy we were lucky the brake pads were brand new pads and they could absorb more energy than nearly done pads.

Huh? This is how the DEN brake seizure happened.

AB 3 used on a hot day and one TR was deferred. And they were slow to deploy the remaining TR. Pulled off the runway, had to sit for a while so the put the parking brake on, and the brakes seized. Couldn’t taxi.



Stop using AB 3 or MAX when it isn’t necessary. Even speed brakes and 1 TR can be used to slow to a slower speed before applying light manual brake pressure.

 

[GroundPilot]

I’m curious about the dispatch paperwork (not pointing any fingers). Do your shops include runway analysis or performance numbers for runways that are unavailable at the planned departure time?

Flight Keys has color coding for anything that deals with runways so it's easier for a dispatcher to spot. Here is an example of the NOTAMs in a briefing package.

 

[Inverted]

Huh? This is how the DEN brake seizure happened.

AB 3 used on a hot day and one TR was deferred. And they were slow to deploy the remaining TR. Pulled off the runway, had to sit for a while so the put the parking brake on, and the brakes seized. Couldn’t taxi.



Stop using AB 3 or MAX when it isn’t necessary. Even speed brakes and 1 TR can be used to slow to a slower speed before applying light manual brake pressure

He is right, AB is simply requesting a deceleration value. It applies brakes (if needed as a result of what AB setting you pick) it applies brake pressure better than a human can in terms of evenness and pressure.

With one TR deferred I still wouldn’t select AB3 in DEN. Selecting AB1 wouldn’t engage brakes with the TRs deployed. Even AB2 might not. Selecting AB3 in Denver is insane even with both TRs deferred. I wouldn’t select AB3 in Denver with a zero flap landing. It’s ludicrous to select AB3.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

He is right, AB is simply requesting a deceleration value. It applies brakes (if needed as a result of what AB setting you pick) it applies brake pressure better than a human can in terms of evenness and pressure.

With one TR deferred I still wouldn’t select AB3 in DEN. Selecting AB1 wouldn’t engage brakes with the TRs deployed. Even AB2 might not. Selecting AB3 in Denver is insane even with both TRs deferred. I wouldn’t select AB3 in Denver with a zero flap landing. It’s ludicrous to select AB3.

And unless it’s a short / contaminated runway, I don’t know what human is touching manual brakes at this very high speed regime to begin with.

Unless I’m BUR or SNA, or a crosswind, no AB and I don’t even touch the wheel brakes until below 100 kts. Have yet to get shuddering brakes with this technique on a hot day.

 

[Inverted]

And unless it’s a short / contaminated runway, I don’t know what human is touching manual brakes at this very high speed regime to begin with.

Unless I’m BUR or SNA, or a crosswind, no AB and I don’t even touch the wheel brakes until below 100 kts. Have yet to get shuddering brakes with this technique on a hot day.

That is the way to do it, that is actually the common sense way to do it. Yet the training department teaches odd things that go against that. It is clearly bad enough to wear CAs aren't catching it or they don't know any better.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Huh? This is how the DEN brake seizure happened.

AB 3 used on a hot day and one TR was deferred. And they were slow to deploy the remaining TR. Pulled off the runway, had to sit for a while so the put the parking brake on, and the brakes seized. Couldn’t taxi.



Stop using AB 3 or MAX when it isn’t necessary. Even speed brakes and 1 TR can be used to slow to a slower speed before applying light manual brake pressure.

I didn’t mention anything about which deceleration rate to select. Autobrakes dissipate the energy of the aircraft more evenly into both the left and right main wheel assemblies. It’s better than humans at that.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Where are you guys landing where you're smoking the brakes to limits? This sounds like a pilot training issue. We routinely get hot brakes in Denver, but for crissakes you've got 5 miles or runway out there. You could practically roll to a stop without touching the brakes before the end! No reason to get on the binders above 80 knots.

This was starting my most recent trip in Seattle. It’s an 8500’ runway.