Yes, so the controller catching that he said 29 and that it's notam'd closed for a few more minutes is a pretty chance happening. NOTAMS and specifically closed or obstructed runways have been a point of emphasis lately but the only specific requirement on an en route controllers part is pertaining to an approach clearance.
Oh SWA…how many is this?
- Thread starter SurferLucas
- Start date
That makes sense. And agreed.
I see pilots here and there trying to sluf responsibility of this event off on ATC in some way, or dispatch or whatever. When this one is on the pilots. Especially after the ATC comms that SWA communicated. Now, what factors are behind what this crew did, what they failed to do, and what drove those choices, are what needs to be analyzed.
I'm not a pilot so forgive me if this question seems silly. It seems a few airliners took off back to back on the correct runway that morning prior to the tower opening. Without the tower operating, how does the airliner taking off know there's enough clearance from the one that just took off before it? What if its foggy and IFR when taking off? How does a pilot on the ILS get cleared to land and know the runway is clear when the pilot can't see past minimums when there's no tower?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
In VFR conditions, you just have to listen to the CTAF (common traffic advisory frequency) and hope everybody plays along.
If it's IFR and the tower is closed, somebody else manages the airspace above the airport. Normally this is either Center or maybe Approach for another airport in the area. They will issue you a clearance to depart, and then won't issue any more clearances until you either show up on their scope and they radar identify you, or if there is no radar, you check in over a specific waypoint. Normally during these situations it's only one aircraft in or one aircraft out at a time, so it isn't unusual for arriving aircraft to get way slowed down, or to have to hold to wait for their turn for an approach clearance, and for departing aircraft to be sitting around waiting their turn to go.
It gets even more complex when there isn't a good radio frequency to reach the controlling agency so you have to call flight service or some other source and have them relay clearances to you. In American Samoa, the airspace is uncontrolled (no tower) but the overlying airspace belongs to Western Samoa over in Apia. When you fly in they will clear you to exit controlled airspace (3000 feet I think?) and commence your approach. There is no (good) way to reach them on the ground to cancel your flight plan so you generally have to ask operations to call them on the phone. Coming back out, to get your clearance, you can sometimes reach them on HF radio, which is terrible. Since all of our aircraft have sat phones, the easiest thing to do is just call them via SAT and get a clearance that way. Once you take off and get above the mountain range, you can reach them via VHF radio and get vectors or cleared direct on your way.
Fun fact... most airports don't have a control tower at all, and many of the ones that do don't have 24 hour towers.
bimmerphile
MCAS Meat Inhibition Logic
most places with radar coverage are asking for the departure runway when you get a hold for release clearance. so why do they care which runway you’re using if its not their responsibility how you get airborne? it’s still their airspace to sequence departure traffic, no?
vectors ‘upon entering controlled airspace’ anyone?
my point is that center controllers have made an emphasis over notams to uncontrolled fields in recent years and that another hole in the swiss cheese lined up. one that I thought may have been an easy save with a
‘hey man you sure about this’
vectors ‘upon entering controlled airspace’ anyone?
my point is that center controllers have made an emphasis over notams to uncontrolled fields in recent years and that another hole in the swiss cheese lined up. one that I thought may have been an easy save with a
‘hey man you sure about this’
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I don't know how it is nationally, but on my jaunts across the upper midwest and rockies to/from the east coast, it sure seems like that bored center controller over North Dakota is itching to read N65675 the notams for Grand Forks at 0200 while they hang out in a hold like it was an ice collecting turn.
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
Well some of us knuckle draggers came from turboprops and they talk like really fast on the radio in SEA.
(Tongue in cheek obviously)
But the transition from props to The Jet
took some getting used to, especially since VNAV isn’t always great in The Jet.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Well some of us knuckle draggers came from turboprops and they talk like really fast on the radio in SEA.
View attachment 78625
(Tongue in cheek obviously)
But the transition from props to The Jet
My favorite is when I pause, ensure silence on the freq, and then make a 10/10 perfect check in with approach.......and then the response is "stepped on, was that Eskimo 1234 checking in?".....and then my response is something like "Eskimo 1234 uhhhh CHECKING IN descending to 6000, no descending via.......uhhhhhhh......the......GLAZER......uhhhh......uhhhhh......Bravo, • • •, we'll just slow to 210 and switch 133.65, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
I thought it was “with you” that we hated?Choke yourself for the bold.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
That's the worst one.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Raised hand in the air “and also with you”
(I do this if I’m flying with a “with you pilot”)
My biggest pet peeve is the possessive flight number (Delta’s XXX…Horizon’s XXX…etc)
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Maybe that’s part of it, coming from a jet with even sketchier vnav and way more limited configuration options (no spoilers with flaps, gear speed 200).Well some of us knuckle draggers came from turboprops and they talk like really fast on the radio in SEA.
View attachment 78625
(Tongue in cheek obviously)
But the transition from props to The Jet
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
I never, EVER did that when I was in the right seat...or tried to answer ATC on PA the other day...nope, never
JordanD
Here so I don’t get fined
I never asked ORD ground for some wheelchairs at 3pm
Seggy
Well-Known Member
What is a 73NA?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
We have the hand mic that is only hooked up to the PA, as long as I use that I’ve never had a problem. The one time I tried to get fancy and use the audio control panel I gave a great MCO approach checkin over the PA.
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Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
I did a whole ass takeoff briefing on JFK tower once at ASA. We were the only plane out there too so I couldn't hide.
Ended with "any questions?"
Tower came back with "yeah, I got one...why did you decide to share that?"
"I just thought you wanted to know."