Oh SWA…how many is this?

[🦈💜]

Because the ground controller is working the Clearance Delivery position on the same frequency. As far as actual taxiing, the position of Ground controller (not in a Clearance Delivery function...as per your example) cannot issue clearances. They can only issue taxi instructions.

It was a joke. I couldn't help myself.

 

[Roger Roger]

@MikeD I don't understand how anyone can smoke the brakes on a 737.

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

 

[///AMG]

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

I have 100% seen people turn a normal VNAV arrival in which nobody would need to touch anything, into a complete s***show because they overthink it, or have a million "techniques" to basically undermine the automation. Great if you want to just hand fly the thing, but maybe don't try to trick **** the A/P programming. It isn't "smooth", it never will be in all conditions, but it isn't gonna get you flight violated (if you just leave it be, and do the correct things with the MCP), and 99% of the time, you will have vectors in the end to fix anything it didn't energy wise. Some people just want to work too hard. Wanna know how you see VNAV SPD and a crossing restriction "oh crap" moment in the wild? It is by trying to be too cute with speed intervention, and all kinds of other weird "tricks". If you make me stair step the MCP altitude window on a "descend via" arrival, I'm gonna be annoyed.

 

[ShortField]

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

 

[///AMG]

View attachment 78581

You have no idea how deep this movie runs for me personally, professionally, or how I once lived and worked with 20 other grown men who would religiously play it every time we pulled ashore after weeks/months flying at sea. One might say that we did it to attract all the cute girls in the air wing, but it was entirely unrelated to them. I know you assigned much less depth to this than I am giving you credit for right now

 

[MikeD]

I have 100% seen people turn a normal VNAV arrival in which nobody would need to touch anything, into a complete s***show because they overthink it, or have a million "techniques" to basically undermine the automation. Great if you want to just hand fly the thing, but maybe don't try to trick **** the A/P programming. It isn't "smooth", it never will be in all conditions, but it isn't gonna get you flight violated (if you just leave it be, and do the correct things with the MCP), and 99% of the time, you will have vectors in the end to fix anything it didn't energy wise. Some people just want to work too hard. Wanna know how you see VNAV SPD and a crossing restriction "oh crap" moment in the wild? It is by trying to be too cute with speed intervention, and all kinds of other weird "tricks". If you make me stair step the MCP altitude window on a "descend via" arrival, I'm gonna be annoyed.

Set final altitude in the MCP, intervene it to descend, and let VNAV do its thing. It’s not a difficult system. It has a few quirks, but let it do its thing.

 

[///AMG]

Set final altitude in the MCP, intervene it to descend, and let VNAV do its thing. It’s not a difficult system. It has a few quirks, but let it do its thing.

Exactly. Don't hang on to whatever 200 or 400 ism you thought was important. I mean Jesus Christ I am preaching to the choir here, probably the only guy on here who flies these planes regularly. But it is called the easy button for a reason. Funny how all the pilots who like to call themselves "big picture" are actually really small picture focusing on shiny things. Humans are interesting.

But to your point, they'll say "oh well the wing is different" or "you didn't enter the QNH into the descent forecast page (you prob don't have that)"

No, it works just fine if you don't • with it you •......even with a tailwind (though it trends "hot" in that case)

Just like if you don't stare at the fuel like a pot of water waiting to boil, you might not lose your • at the first discrepancy between planned and actual fuel when you still are forecast to land like 4k lbs above anything worrisome. What kinda game are we playing here anyway Mike?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I wonder how many of these "there's no reason to heat the brakes up!" guys cause go arounds or at the very least sweating when there's already minimum separation with the guy behind them on final. Not taking a side either way, just spitballing.

Fly a plane that people aren’t allowed to follow closely and that’s a self solving problem!

 

[ERfly]

Fly a plane that people aren’t allowed to follow closely and that’s a self solving problem!

*Laughs in Memphis*

 

[Inverted]

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

There is a funny juxtaposition at AS having transitioned out of the Airbus. We were told a bunch that Airbus pilots and Airbus cockpit philosophy was too much talking, confirming FMAs etc. and that it wasn't needed. At the same time, we were all terrified of VNAV in the 737 by the time we finished systems because we basically left there thinking it was going to do all kinds of crazy stuff at a moment's notice, we can confuse it and cause it to basically give up,etc. I think there should be more of a focus of confirming FMA changes verbally and if you leave the airplane alone in VNAV it does a really good job. It isn't until you start jacking with it that it goes wonky.

This goes back to another discussion regarding flap use and using speedbrakes with flaps. Pilots are afraid to configure if needed. I had an FO last night profusely apologize to me in the debrief for using speed brakes with flaps 1. Again it is 100% fine to do so but people are so afraid to get the wing configured properly that they often rely on gear as the big drag play but I have absolutely seen gear do next to nothing when you are trying to go down and slow down when the flaps are up.

 

[derg]

Man, I haven’t seen jjjjjjjjet or jettttttt in a long time!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Man, I haven’t seen jjjjjjjjet or jettttttt in a long time!

Why?

Is it so damn smoooooooooooooothhhh

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNWN6bXM3Z2N0ZnFiZHlwN2RpeTdyNmowbDRybDZ2MjhtbDViOWNzOSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/SBI7lnqk2NaA8/giphy.gif

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I am probably going to regret this but I’m 2 gin and ginger beer and 4 redeyes in and I have • all that I HAVE to do tomorrow so f it.

A lot of pilots just aren’t that great. Shoot I think I’m not that great, but man, some of the stuff that people treat as •in rocket surgery just….isn’t. Like we get hammered in training that the 73 is easy to get behind, high and fast, hard to configure, VNAV will • you. •. If you’re having trouble with getting the 73 down on profile and configured, it’s you. It’s easier than any of the little jets I flew. • the Navajo you had to pay more attention to. Or if you can take the learjetttttt into jnu on a windy night when it’s ripping down 8 and a quartering tailwind at 2000’ while you’re burning the anti ice, you can manage the day to day stuff on “the jettttt” (/angle lake) with no trouble

Even if you’re not allowed to use flaps 2 @SurferLucas

The truth is with modern automation and guys who don’t do any manual flying, a lot of pilots are between “suck” to “average.”

 

[Roger Roger]

There is a funny juxtaposition at AS having transitioned out of the Airbus. We were told a bunch that Airbus pilots and Airbus cockpit philosophy was too much talking, confirming FMAs etc. and that it wasn't needed. At the same time, we were all terrified of VNAV in the 737 by the time we finished systems because we basically left there thinking it was going to do all kinds of crazy stuff at a moment's notice, we can confuse it and cause it to basically give up,etc. I think there should be more of a focus of confirming FMA changes verbally and if you leave the airplane alone in VNAV it does a really good job. It isn't until you start jacking with it that it goes wonky.

This goes back to another discussion regarding flap use and using speedbrakes with flaps. Pilots are afraid to configure if needed. I had an FO last night profusely apologize to me in the debrief for using speed brakes with flaps 1. Again it is 100% fine to do so but people are so afraid to get the wing configured properly that they often rely on gear as the big drag play but I have absolutely seen gear do next to nothing when you are trying to go down and slow down when the flaps are up.

There is a funny juxtaposition at AS having transitioned out of the Airbus. We were told a bunch that Airbus pilots and Airbus cockpit philosophy was too much talking, confirming FMAs etc. and that it wasn't needed. At the same time, we were all terrified of VNAV in the 737 by the time we finished systems because we basically left there thinking it was going to do all kinds of crazy stuff at a moment's notice, we can confuse it and cause it to basically give up,etc. I think there should be more of a focus of confirming FMA changes verbally and if you leave the airplane alone in VNAV it does a really good job. It isn't until you start jacking with it that it goes wonky.

This goes back to another discussion regarding flap use and using speedbrakes with flaps. Pilots are afraid to configure if needed. I had an FO last night profusely apologize to me in the debrief for using speed brakes with flaps 1. Again it is 100% fine to do so but people are so afraid to get the wing configured properly that they often rely on gear as the big drag play but I have absolutely seen gear do next to nothing when you are trying to go down and slow down when the flaps are up.

I saw a trip with you in open time but it didn’t fit my schedule

 

[Inverted]

I saw a trip with you in open time but it didn’t fit my schedule

Bummer! That would have been fun.

 

[Richman]

It’s dark, it’s early, you need to get a clearance from center which, I’m afraid to say, 90% of us reading this are going to screw up the sequence because if you’re a mainline pilot flying between the big airports, it’s not super cut and dry.

I can only look back to my past. Leaving TVC one morning before the tower was open, I asked my new copilot, fresh-ish out of the military, to review non-towered procedures the night before so I wouldn’t be single pilot ops on the ground and in the initial climb. I had to convince him that we needed to call Minneapolis Center for a clearance, and then a release time, were going to communicate over CTAF stating who we were, where we were taxiing, to which runway using the electronic weather we had available, consistent with the NOTAMS and it was pulling teeth.

“We don’t’ have a taxi clearance!” “We don’t need a taxi clearance, it’s uncontrolled, we state intentions over CTAF”

“Which runway are they going to give us?” “We determine the appropriate runway ourselves”

And so on and so on.

Without telling an entire story over again, I can respect a good deal of confusion and, well, even assumption that the radios are set. Is that the case here? I have no idea, but I’m more apt to give the crew the benefit of the doubt that it was just a series of small mistakes that lead up to a big one instead of intentional negligence.

Especially when I have my own experiences with going from a world of DTW/LAX/JFK/DFW/ORD/ATL and then ending up in TVC with a closed tower on a Sunday at 0500.

I'm with @derg, and give max consideration to the crew here. 0500 is a tough time to get your s4!t all in one sock, and it can be double tough if only one person is playing.

I play a lot in places like PWM, GRR, TVC, MOT, SAV, etc, etc. and how I handle it is very dependent on the guy in the right seat. If he came from Clem's Bait Shak and Regional Airline, then I'm pretty confident they're dialed in. If not, then I ask some questions, and make sure everyone is on the same page.

That last can be a lot of work, and at 0500, can be a serious PITA and can be a sucky way to start the day when the hotel van was late, the line at "Airport Eats" was 30 deep, so no coffee, and no one bothered to check the potable water the night before. In Derg's example, this can be made much harder if your partner is antagonistically not with the program.

I treat uncontrolled fields just like a railroad crossing: Stop, look, & listen. Double check the NOTAMS, make sure we're dialed up on CTAF, figure out the clearance/release freqs. Pushback, everything gets done at the gate before we move an inch. Brief the FAs that it's a short taxi (always is), start 2, FMS, weight & performance, checklists up to the before TO, etc. Literally the only thing left to do is taxi and WATCH & LISTEN. Get the release when stopped at the hold short line.

Set yourself up for success.

 

[ShortField]

Why don’t they just tow the lighted x out there and fire it up? Too straightforward or what? Nah, we’d rather just bury a little blurb in this wall of • about a runway closure. That should do it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Why don’t they just tow the lighted x out there and fire it up? Too straightforward or what? Nah, we’d rather just bury a little blurb in this wall of • about a runway closure. That should do it.

I'm sure that 'an investigator' somewhere is going to look at that.

 

[MikeD]

Why don’t they just tow the lighted x out there and fire it up? Too straightforward or what? Nah, we’d rather just bury a little blurb in this wall of • about a runway closure. That should do it.

Might not be a requirement for short term runway closures, not sure of that specifically though. For example, at night, some airports will close a runway and just have the runway lights for that runway selected to off, so it can’t even be seen.

The biggest casual issue will be the CTAF, in terms of just normal ops requirements for the field and the overall lack of SA exhibited. The other factors are mostly secondary and/or tertiary.