Oh Alaska/Boeing

That same somebody should absolutely 100% have it in him, to know to re-install those 4 bolts back, before he can breathe a sigh of relief from his work.
Tell me you’ve never done shift work. :)

The tech responsible for putting the bolts in, and the supervisor, are already gone, I promise you that.
According to the Reddit throwaway account (eh?), the act of removing the bolts was never documented, even though it was prerequisite action before futzing-around with wrongly-installed rivets or a door seal. That has two implications:
  1. There was task in the backlog to complete the bolt removal close-out.
  2. No task means no name of an individual to can. I wouldn’t be surprised if they even know which shift was working when the bolts were removed in preparation for other work.
This is exactly the kind of scenario a whole mess of procedures and standard work is designed to avoid. But it works only as long a doing things "right" is valued as much as moving as fast as institutionally possible.
 
The reality is, if the whistle blower comment guy is to be believed (and he should be, everything he said sounds legit), then there isn’t anything on the CEO level for this particular incident. IMO. What this comment guy said was 2 separate tracking programs, and this door wasn’t logged as officially being “opened.” And since it wasn’t logged that way, there was no MX task card to ensure it was closed with 4 bolts. So it left with no bolts. This is at least 150 levels removed from a CEO action. Again, just IMO.

Yes, it’s a terrible accident. But I think the media is going all in on the aviation fear porn (what they love doing).

I disagree. The two separate tracking systems is a problem for sure. Again though, two separate tracking systems isn't responsible for two MAX crashes killing everyone on board, or loose rudder bolts, or debris being left inside KC-46s, or metal fragments found around wiring looms in the 787. Or really even to blame for the MAX9 door plug. It is a symptom of a bigger problem.

Watch the Netflix documentary and tell me how much of Boeing's issues are because of two separate tracking systems. If you have two systems, you check both systems to see that the work got done. The process doesn't have to be clean, but it is still a process of work completion.

This is a leadership failure from top to bottom. From one of the night shift supervisors at a given plant to the CEO and EVERY leadership role in between. Every whistleblower has uttered as much and it is evident that Boeing lacks real leadership.

This is 100% a failure of the CEO to run a company. If this were merely an isolated incident where a work loophole was discovered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it isn't isolated. It isn't isolated to a single fleet, or a single factory, or a single incident.
 
Tell me you’ve never done shift work. :)

I figured it’s like that. You’re right.


IIRC, there was some Continental Express (Connection?) turboprop, I think an E120? It was the rivets/bolts on the top part of the stabilizer. One shift did one part, and that shift assumed next shift would do the next part. That never happened.

So only half the bolts were in for that stabilizer. Separated in flight, fatal loss of aircraft.


According to the Reddit throwaway account (eh?), the act of removing the bolts was never documented, even though it was prerequisite action before futzing-around with wrongly-installed rivets or a door seal. That has two implications:
  1. There was task in the backlog to complete the bolt removal close-out.
  2. No task means no name of an individual to can. I wouldn’t be surprised if they even know which shift was working when the bolts were removed in preparation for other work.
This is exactly the kind of scenario a whole mess of procedures and standard work is designed to avoid. But it works only as long a doing things "right" is valued as much as moving as fast as institutionally possible.
 
Tell me you’ve never done shift work. :)


According to the Reddit throwaway account (eh?), the act of removing the bolts was never documented, even though it was prerequisite action before futzing-around with wrongly-installed rivets or a door seal. That has two implications:
  1. There was task in the backlog to complete the bolt removal close-out.
  2. No task means no name of an individual to can. I wouldn’t be surprised if they even know which shift was working when the bolts were removed in preparation for other work.
This is exactly the kind of scenario a whole mess of procedures and standard work is designed to avoid. But it works only as long a doing things "right" is valued as much as moving as fast as institutionally possible.

Well, they have a picture of the door without the bolts while it was literally in work, so I have to believe that they know who it was and when it was.
 
I disagree. The two separate tracking systems is a problem for sure. Again though, two separate tracking systems isn't responsible for two MAX crashes killing everyone on board, or loose rudder bolts, or debris being left inside KC-46s, or metal fragments found around wiring looms in the 787. Or really even to blame for the MAX9 door plug. It is a symptom of a bigger problem.

Watch the Netflix documentary and tell me how much of Boeing's issues are because of two separate tracking systems. If you have two systems, you check both systems to see that the work got done. The process doesn't have to be clean, but it is still a process of work completion.

This is a leadership failure from top to bottom. From one of the night shift supervisors at a given plant to the CEO and EVERY leadership role in between. Every whistleblower has uttered as much and it is evident that Boeing lacks real leadership.

This is 100% a failure of the CEO to run a company. If this were merely an isolated incident where a work loophole was discovered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it isn't isolated. It isn't isolated to a single fleet, or a single factory, or a single incident.


I watched the Netflix documentary, and it had that one guy fired who is now anti-MAX. He doesn’t come off as credible. Sounds like a manager who got pushed over, and others selected for further promotion, and he had an axe to grind with Boeing. He went all out against the MAX during MCAS, how he brought up “numerous” safety issues, but none of his issues were MCAS. They were mostly BS issues.


The media never understood MCAS properly. It’s portrayed as NEEDING MCAS in order to not stall. False. The MAX would fly with no MCAS. It just wouldn’t be certified under the same B737 type. It’s a G force at certain stick alpha requirement.


And don’t get met started on Lion Air and Ethiopian.



Ethiopian happened in March, after the world knew about MCAS. They weren’t pilots, they were button pushers. 0 aviation skill among the two. The FO was useless and the CA took off with a stick shaker and asked 3 times for the AP to be engaged. Their fate was sealed.

Ethiopian should never have happened.
 
Tell me you’ve never done shift work. :)


According to the Reddit throwaway account (eh?), the act of removing the bolts was never documented, even though it was prerequisite action before futzing-around with wrongly-installed rivets or a door seal. That has two implications:
  1. There was task in the backlog to complete the bolt removal close-out.
  2. No task means no name of an individual to can. I wouldn’t be surprised if they even know which shift was working when the bolts were removed in preparation for other work.
This is exactly the kind of scenario a whole mess of procedures and standard work is designed to avoid. But it works only as long a doing things "right" is valued as much as moving as fast as institutionally possible.
It’s also worth noting since a lot of people probably don’t know, but technicians in an airplane factory aren’t necessarily A&Ps. You can be Joe Schmo off the street a lot of places and you get a week long course on how to drill holes and install fasteners and they kick you onto the line to learn on the job (varies with the company and I might be exaggerating but it depends).

Airplanes are still built safely because unlike A&P MX where mechanics are largely unsupervised and need to be very self-motivated, everything on an assembly line is scripted through manufacturing planning paperwork (now digital). Every cost center or job has a series of tasks in chronological order that have been “planned” out by a Manufacturing Engineer whose job is to interpret the design drawings and write a custom set of instructions for that operation. The tech then does their work with the planning paperwork (the script) at the ready, and they used to have to carry individually assigned numbered stamps and physically stamp each step, certifying that they had done the work. Most places now have this on a computer but the same principle applies. Certain key junctures in the build would include Quality Control inspections / buy offs, especially when an area is about to become closed out or non-inspectable in the future - checking those cotter pins in the door plug before re-installing the interior wall is a classic example where this should be done.

There’s an entirely separate process used for identifying, dispositioning and repairing manufacturing mistakes. I’m sure a lot of you guys haven’t thought about this but every airplane you’ve ever flown contains hundreds if not thousands of manufacturing defects, and companies are under cost and schedule pressure to avoid scrapping and replacing parts if they can be structurally repaired back to full strength safely. So there’s an entire team of quality, liaison engineers, design engineers and analysts that review identified manufacturing defects, determine whether the part can be salvaged or must be replaced, come up with a custom fix and analyze to make sure sufficient strength margins are left over. This can be as simple as drilling one size bigger hole and installing one size larger fastener, or as crazy as cutting out damaged sections and designing and fabricating custom doublers and repair patches that span the gap. In either case custom manufacturing planning paperwork is generated that tracks the mistake, the disposition, the repair and final buy off inspections.

So the key takeaway from this incident is not that they were on two systems, but that they were using a second system as a workaround of the first - and that middle management had created a safety culture that normalized going “off-script” and violating their own processes, and working around the guard rails (like quality inspections and the manufacturing defect disposition process) that the original system specifically had in place to prevent things like this from happening. If news comment guy is to be believed - Manipulating the verbiage to “Opening” the door instead of “Removing” the door (when they are physically one and the same) was a case of working around that system. Drilling out and replacing the rivets on the second system instead of the first was a separate violation of the manufacturing defect process above.

Both are totally unacceptable and have huge programmatic ramifications. The airplane is certified based on specific processes, so you start violating those processes in a non-quantifiable way and those ramifications could be up to and including calling airworthiness of the entire airplane into question, and everyone in that chain of command deserves to be held accountable.
 
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So the key takeaway from this incident is not that they were on two systems, but that they were using a second system as a workaround of the first - and that middle management had created a safety culture that normalized going “off-script” and violating their own processes, and working around the guard rails (like quality inspections and the manufacturing defect disposition process) that the original system specifically had in place to prevent things like this from happening. That is totally unacceptable and has huge programmatic ramifications up to and including calling airworthiness of the entire airplane into question, and everyone in that chain of command deserves to be held accountable.
Viper telling Maverick that the Rules of Engagement exist for his safety and the safety of his teammates, and so on.
 
It’s also worth noting since a lot of people probably don’t know, but technicians in an airplane factory aren’t necessarily A&Ps. You can be Joe Schmo off the street a lot of places and you get a week long course on how to drill holes and install fasteners and they kick you onto the line to learn on the job (varies with the company and I might be exaggerating but it depends).

Airplanes are still built safely because unlike A&P MX where mechanics are largely unsupervised and need to be very self-motivated, everything on an assembly line is scripted through manufacturing planning paperwork (now digital). Every cost center or job has a series of tasks in chronological order that have been “planned” out by a Manufacturing Engineer whose job is to interpret the design drawings and write a custom set of instructions for that operation. The tech then does their work with the planning paperwork (the script) at the ready, and they used to have to carry individually assigned numbered stamps and physically stamp each step, certifying that they had done the work. Most places now have this on a computer but the same principle applies. Certain key junctures in the build would include Quality Control inspections / buy offs, especially when an area is about to become closed out or non-inspectable in the future - checking those cotter pins in the door plug before re-installing the interior wall is a classic example where this should be done.

There’s an entirely separate process used for identifying, dispositioning and repairing manufacturing mistakes. I’m sure a lot of you guys haven’t thought about this but every airplane you’ve ever flown contains hundreds if not thousands of manufacturing defects, and companies are under cost and schedule pressure to avoid scrapping and replacing parts if they can be structurally repaired back to full strength safely. So there’s an entire team of quality, liaison engineers, design engineers and analysts that review identified manufacturing defects, determine whether the part can be salvaged or must be replaced, come up with a custom fix and analyze to make sure sufficient strength margins are left over. This can be as simple as drilling one size bigger hole and installing one size larger fastener, or as crazy as cutting out damaged sections and designing and fabricating custom doublers and repair patches that span the gap. In either case custom manufacturing planning paperwork is generated that tracks the mistake, the disposition, the repair and final buy off inspections.

So the key takeaway from this incident is not that they were on two systems, but that they were using a second system as a workaround of the first - and that middle management had created a safety culture that normalized going “off-script” and violating their own processes, and working around the guard rails (like quality inspections and the manufacturing defect disposition process) that the original system specifically had in place to prevent things like this from happening. If news comment guy is to be believed - Manipulating the verbiage to “Opening” the door instead of “Removing” the door (when they are physically one and the same) was a case of working around that system. Drilling out and replacing the rivets on the second system instead of the first was a separate violation of the manufacturing defect process above.

Both are totally unacceptable and have huge programmatic ramifications. The airplane is certified based on specific processes, so you start violating those processes in a non-quantifiable way and those ramifications could be up to and including calling airworthiness of the entire airplane into question, and everyone in that chain of command deserves to be held accountable.

Yep.

I worked at an FAA licensed repair facility as an overhaul tech on C-130 generators and starters. I am not an A&P but my F-18 Hornet mechanic experience in the Navy helped a lot. It was shift work, very similar to a manufacturing facility. There was a constant shift pass down of work done and work that needed to be completed, with the same kinds of QA checks that an aircraft manufacturer would do.
 
I watched the Netflix documentary, and it had that one guy fired who is now anti-MAX. He doesn’t come off as credible. Sounds like a manager who got pushed over, and others selected for further promotion, and he had an axe to grind with Boeing. He went all out against the MAX during MCAS, how he brought up “numerous” safety issues, but none of his issues were MCAS. They were mostly BS issues.


The media never understood MCAS properly. It’s portrayed as NEEDING MCAS in order to not stall. False. The MAX would fly with no MCAS. It just wouldn’t be certified under the same B737 type. It’s a G force at certain stick alpha requirement.


And don’t get met started on Lion Air and Ethiopian.



Ethiopian happened in March, after the world knew about MCAS. They weren’t pilots, they were button pushers. 0 aviation skill among the two. The FO was useless and the CA took off with a stick shaker and asked 3 times for the AP to be engaged. Their fate was sealed.

Ethiopian should never have happened.

Well, I will disagree again. Nobody understood MCAS properly because the concepts and systems information of MCAS were never disseminated to airlines in a meaningful fashion. MCAS was in fact needed for the MAX to fly due to the engines being shifted. It would NOT have been certified without it under a different type.
 
That's not how process works. Or at least, that's not how process is supposed to work.

How about if 4 bolts that hold up a door are removed, put them in a baggie with a red flag, and tape/secure that on the fuselage/door that was removed.



Like a tug for pushback that has a flag. It creates more visibility.


Those 4 bolts were removed, they were put *somewhere*
 
Well, I will disagree again. Nobody understood MCAS properly because the concepts and systems information of MCAS were never disseminated to airlines in a meaningful fashion. MCAS was in fact needed for the MAX to fly due to the engines being shifted. It would NOT have been certified without it under a different type.


Don’t know what to tell you. That is factually incorrect.

It wouldn’t have certified under the current Boeing 737 type rating, since the stick behavior/feel at a high alpha was not the same as the NG. But that doesn’t mean the MAX *needs* the MCAS in order to fly.

If the MAX was called a 797, it would have been certified just fine without MCAS, as its own stand-alone type. Stop buying the media hype BS that the MAX needs MCAS in order to fly. It doesn’t. It was added to mimic NG behavior at a certain high alpha , to keep commonality with the same type rating. Nothing more.
 
And as for Ethiopian, the whole world knew then that MCAS existed, and how to counter it.

The crew was grossly incompetent and killed themselves and all passengers and FAs.
 
How about if 4 bolts that hold up a door are removed, put them in a baggie with a red flag, and tape/secure that on the fuselage/door that was removed.
That’s a great idea and one I tend to agree with. But they aren’t allowed to unless it’s planned out and scripted, and this issue stemmed from a “process escape” where a team was off doing their own thing “off-script” without access to the right system or the right checks and balances from QA.

It wouldn’t have certified under the current Boeing 737 type rating, since the stick behavior/feel at a high alpha was not the same as the NG. But that doesn’t mean the MAX *needs* the MCAS in order to fly.

If the MAX was called a 797, it would have been certified just fine without MCAS, as its own stand-alone type. Stop buying the media hype BS that the MAX needs MCAS in order to fly. It doesn’t. It was added to mimic NG behavior at a certain high alpha , to keep commonality with the same type rating. Nothing more.

I never heard the argument that it was a type rating commonality decision, do you have a source for that? AFAIK a negative stick-force-per-G gradient (meaning pull more Gs, make more alpha, stick forces get lighter) is not acceptable in any Part 25 certified airplane.

Results of 2 min google search seem to agree:


 
Don’t know what to tell you. That is factually incorrect.

It wouldn’t have certified under the current Boeing 737 type rating, since the stick behavior/feel at a high alpha was not the same as the NG. But that doesn’t mean the MAX *needs* the MCAS in order to fly.

Well, the flight characteristics without MCAS were found to be undesirable. Not just different than the NG, but undesirable flight characteristics at certain AOA. I fail to see how that magically disappears when you call it a 797...
 
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I disagree. The two separate tracking systems is a problem for sure. Again though, two separate tracking systems isn't responsible for two MAX crashes killing everyone on board, or loose rudder bolts, or debris being left inside KC-46s, or metal fragments found around wiring looms in the 787. Or really even to blame for the MAX9 door plug. It is a symptom of a bigger problem.

Watch the Netflix documentary and tell me how much of Boeing's issues are because of two separate tracking systems. If you have two systems, you check both systems to see that the work got done. The process doesn't have to be clean, but it is still a process of work completion.

This is a leadership failure from top to bottom. From one of the night shift supervisors at a given plant to the CEO and EVERY leadership role in between. Every whistleblower has uttered as much and it is evident that Boeing lacks real leadership.

This is 100% a failure of the CEO to run a company. If this were merely an isolated incident where a work loophole was discovered, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it isn't isolated. It isn't isolated to a single fleet, or a single factory, or a single incident.

I don’t think CC understands leadership very well.

“It’s not the CEOs fault, it’s the guy who didn’t install the bolts” probably morphs very quickly into “it wasn’t my fault, it was the FOs leg!”
 
How about if 4 bolts that hold up a door are removed, put them in a baggie with a red flag, and tape/secure that on the fuselage/door that was removed.



Like a tug for pushback that has a flag. It creates more visibility.


Those 4 bolts were removed, they were put *somewhere*
Want to know how to ensure hardware doesn't get lost when you remove something? Put the fastener back in its hole finger tight. It's not going anywhere and the piece cant be reinstalled. I can recall back in the olden times during engine changes with newbies I'd bark at them for attaching a line and not actually torquing it, it looks like it's connected but it's not. Guess how I learned that lesson?
 
I don’t think CC understands leadership very well.

“It’s not the CEOs fault, it’s the guy who didn’t install the bolts” probably morphs very quickly into “it wasn’t my fault, it was the FOs leg!”


Once again, illogical fallacy.

2 man crew on one plane in the sky != a super conglomerate that is Boeing, Spirit, et al with numerous CEOs, COOs, and VPs.
 
Well, the flight characteristics without MCAS were found to be undesirable. Not just different than the NG, but undesirable flight characteristics at certain AOA. I fail to see how that magically disappears when you call it a 797...


You're correct. I think Dickson's point was, the regime they found that to be the case seems like no one sane would ever go there, and even then, if you were there, the difference was fairly light.

I'll try and find a better link.


Bottom line, no one in any normal regime on a MAX should have MCAS going off. There is zero reason an airplane's AOA should be so high as for the STS even think about triggering MCAS.
 
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