Oh Alaska/Boeing

[BobDDuck]

So the 4 bolts were never installed back on, looks like the anonymous whistle blower was right.

Alaska Airlines plane may have left Boeing factory without bolts to secure door plug: report

Boeing employees may have failed to put the bolts back on a door plug during production of the 737 MAX 9 jet at its factory, according to a report.

www.foxbusiness.com

Comment section be like…………..


View attachment 76241

Are you posting that because you agree with them or because of how ridiculous you think they are?

Also, based on my experience working QA at Boeing one upon a time I totally believe that this could happen, but your article doesn't confirm anything and simply references the articles that were based on the whistle-blower last week.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Are you posting that because you agree with them or because of how ridiculous you think they are?

Also, based on my experience working QA at Boeing one upon a time I totally believe that this could happen, but your article doesn't confirm anything and simply references the articles that were based on the whistle-blower last week.

Isn’t th is the first time they are confirming no marks (that would have been left behind had bolts been ripped)?

“
The theory about the missing bolts is based on a lack of markings that would have indicated they were in place when the door plug blew out from the plane’s cabin at 16,000 feet on January 5, the Journal reported.
“


And the DEI stuff is silly, there’s no proof that’s what happened. And not to mention, this wasn’t just a one person failure. It was a system failure.

 

[knot4u]

Isn’t th is the first time they are confirming no marks (that would have been left behind had bolts been ripped)?

“
The theory about the missing bolts is based on a lack of markings that would have indicated they were in place when the door plug blew out from the plane’s cabin at 16,000 feet on January 5, the Journal reported.
“


And the DEI stuff is silly, there’s no proof that’s what happened. And not to mention, this wasn’t just a one person failure. It was a system failure.

I agree that those bolts must not have been installed, even one of them without a nut and cotter pin just rattling around in its hole would've kept the door from lifting up enough disengage from the frame fittings. Everyone keeps calling these doors "plugs", maybe that's just a marketing term for an unused exit, but in my dumb head plugs are pieces slightly larger than the hole they're supposed to fill and once the pressure vessel is inflated will be almost impossible to unseat. The question is when was the last time the door was removed and installed? There are lots of allegations being thrown around between Alaska, Boeing and Spirit about quality escapes. Time will tell and a scapegoat that hurts the investors the least will be found. It's 2024.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I agree that those bolts must not have been installed, even one of them without a nut and cotter pin just rattling around in its hole would've kept the door from lifting up enough disengage from the frame fittings. Everyone keeps calling these doors "plugs", maybe that's just a marketing term for an unused exit, but in my dumb head plugs are pieces slightly larger than the hole they're supposed to fill and once the pressure vessel is inflated will be almost impossible to unseat. The question is when was the last time the door was removed and installed? There are lots of allegations being thrown around between Alaska, Boeing and Spirit about quality escapes. Time will tell and a scapegoat that hurts the investors the least will be found. It's 2024.

I have no reason to doubt the guy who I wrote about previously. He seems to mail the timeline down to the specific dates.

 

[MikeD]

I agree that those bolts must not have been installed, even one of them without a nut and cotter pin just rattling around in its hole would've kept the door from lifting up enough disengage from the frame fittings. Everyone keeps calling these doors "plugs", maybe that's just a marketing term for an unused exit, but in my dumb head plugs are pieces slightly larger than the hole they're supposed to fill and once the pressure vessel is inflated will be almost impossible to unseat. The question is when was the last time the door was removed and installed? There are lots of allegations being thrown around between Alaska, Boeing and Spirit about quality escapes. Time will tell and a scapegoat that hurts the investors the least will be found. It's 2024.

That’s what I was wondering. A plug, to me, had to be removed into the interior of the aircraft, turned to the side and passed through the fuselage hole, in order to be removed externally. It shouldn’t just be able to fit right through. At least I wouldn’t think.

 

[knot4u]

I have no reason to doubt the guy who I wrote about previously. He seems to mail the timeline down to the specific dates.

I've heard versions of Spirit putting it in, Boeing removing and installing it to provide access to install the interior, a contractor removing and installing it to mount an antenna or Alaska removing and installing it. I have zero faith in the hypothesis that Alaska ever touched that door, the airplane was only three months old. But, that airplane did have pressurization issues in flights leading up to the incident flight. I can say from experience the first few hundred hours on a brand new airplane can be stressful. If it turns out that this airplane was unknowingly hamstrung when it was delivered and started to act up and the issues were just not considered valid by the operator then they should take some of the blame. Your MX is part of your company.

 

[knot4u]

That’s what I was wondering. A plug, to me, had to be removed into the interior of the aircraft, turned to the side and passed through the fuselage hole, in order to be removed externally. It shouldn’t just be able to fit right through. At least I wouldn’t think.

The new "plugs" don't seal up against the airframe, they rest against against fittings in the door frame after they've been lifted or lowered into position and locked. I guess it's a hybrid plug? We also need to remember this door had no handle and was invisible, it was not an emergency exit that would have been required if Alaska had chosen to force additional victims into their tubular torture devices. These hybrids sort of drop into place and rest against the fittings that keep them from departing the airplane. Here's a video about this sort of door that I'm unfortunately very familiar with...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_phAl3KdBk

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I've heard versions of Spirit putting it in, Boeing removing and installing it to provide access to install the interior, a contractor removing and installing it to mount an antenna or Alaska removing and installing it. I have zero faith in the hypothesis that Alaska ever touched that door, the airplane was only three months old. But, that airplane did have pressurization issues in flights leading up to the incident flight. I can say from experience the first few hundred hours on a brand new airplane can be stressful. If it turns out that this airplane was unknowingly hamstrung when it was delivered and started to act up and the issues were just not considered valid by the operator then they should take some of the blame. Your MX is part of your company.

At a virtual airline, that is an online computer game only, as a gamer I am pissed at the mis information. Automatic pressure controllers switch from Auto 1 to Auto 2 after landing. If there is a problem on the ground switching from one auto controller to another, then a caution light lights up. At no point did this happen in a virtual flight while in the air. On the ground after landing, a light came in.

I know another gamer online who flew a specific virtual tail number the day before. He had the light on the ground after landing.

 

[knot4u]

At a virtual airline, that is an online computer game only, as a gamer I am pissed at the mis information. Automatic pressure controllers switch from Auto 1 to Auto 2 after landing. If there is a problem on the ground switching from one auto controller to another, then a caution light lights up. At no point did this happen in a virtual flight while in the air. On the ground after landing, a light came in.

I know another gamer online who flew a specific virtual tail number the day before. He had the light on the ground after landing.

I'm sorry skygod captain. The airplane had pressurization issues. Your "virtual" airline was able to clear the fault with keystrokes instead of wrenches and scissorlifts. It's a bad look considering no one has forgotten Camarillo. But that was before your time.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm sorry skygod captain. The airplane had pressurization issues. Your "virtual" airline was able to clear the fault with keystrokes instead of wrenches and scissorlifts. It's a bad look considering no one has forgotten Camarillo. But that was before your time.

Ignorant response. The virtual airline FOLLOWED PUBLISHED maintenance manual guidelines from Boeing. What do you think legacy 121 MX does? Ah gee wiz! This light came on. Oh well, let’s put tape on it.


GMAB. They followed published maintenance manuals and all procedures associated with the pressure controller fault.


I thought you were a mechanic? Bad look from you, if so.

 

[knot4u]

Ignorant response. The virtual airline FOLLOWED PUBLISHED maintenance manual guidelines from Boeing. What do you think legacy 121 MX does? Ah gee wiz! This light came on. Oh well, let’s put tape on it.


GMAB. They followed published maintenance manuals and all procedures associated with the pressure controller fault.


I thought you were a mechanic? Bad look from you, if so.

Published guidelines? There are published checklists and procedures approved by the FAA, where would I find these guidelines?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The approved maintenance manuals. They follow the manufacturer. You’d have to work at an airline to see it.

 

[knot4u]

The approved maintenance manuals. They follow the manufacturer. You’d have to work at an airline to see it.

And somehow after several write ups no one noticed a trend and everyone just kept clearing the fault and kicking it out the door for the next revenue flight. It is what it is and I'm sorry it hurts your feels but I have a question. If you walked onto an almost brand new jet as captain and looked in the can and saw repetitive write ups with no actual resolution would you refuse the flight?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

And somehow after several write ups no one noticed a trend and everyone just kept clearing the fault and kicking it out the door for the next revenue flight. It is what it is and I'm sorry it hurts your feels but I have a question. If you walked onto an almost brand new jet as captain and looked in the can and saw repetitive write ups with no actual resolution would you refuse the flight?

At a virtual airline, like most airlines, there are procedures if it is a multi-repeat event. It depends on the frequency of it, and how soon after another.



My personal strategy is to check back one week for write ups. If I see the same thing twice, it raises my interest, and I’ll see what the signoff was. But it doesn’t mean I refuse the plane.

At a virtual airline, one in December and 2 in Jan. The December one wouldn’t have been visible. Regardless, they were not lights going off in the skies of Flight Simulator.


2 auto pressure controllers and 1 manual controller. A two occurrence write up for the same pressure controller? I’d be okay with that. One pressure controller can be deferred per an MEL.

At a virtual airline, It is highly unlikely this had anything to do with a door plug. There was no pressurization light inflight in these prior instances in Microsoft Flight Simulator.

 

[///AMG]

And somehow after several write ups no one noticed a trend and everyone just kept clearing the fault and kicking it out the door for the next revenue flight. It is what it is and I'm sorry it hurts your feels but I have a question. If you walked onto an almost brand new jet as captain and looked in the can and saw repetitive write ups with no actual resolution would you refuse the flight?

I'm personally willing to wait for the NTSB findings. It is possible to have a couple things going on at once, that seem related, but actually aren't. The NTSB chair said so herself, directly in reference to this, a few weeks ago during a press conference.

 

[form810]

I agree that those bolts must not have been installed, even one of them without a nut and cotter pin just rattling around in its hole would've kept the door from lifting up enough disengage from the frame fittings. Everyone keeps calling these doors "plugs", maybe that's just a marketing term for an unused exit, but in my dumb head plugs are pieces slightly larger than the hole they're supposed to fill and once the pressure vessel is inflated will be almost impossible to unseat. The question is when was the last time the door was removed and installed? There are lots of allegations being thrown around between Alaska, Boeing and Spirit about quality escapes. Time will tell and a scapegoat that hurts the investors the least will be found. It's 2024.

"People are sayin'" it wasn't Boeing who screwed the pooch, but a vendor. Thoughts/Insights?

The 16k Delta P is not high. Whatever this was, something was exceptionally FUBAR here.

 

[Inverted]

I know the blame game is an easy game to play. But the funneling of blame is going to Boeing and it sounds quite logical. The door has to be removed for the interior to be installed. These aircraft are then pressure tested on the ground after the plug door is installed to ensure integrity.

Whether Spirit shipped the fuse and door plug to Boeing with the plug missing hardware or not, the problem should have been rectified at Boeing, and all signs are pointing to it NOT being done. Hell, the Boeing whistleblower basically confirmed that it wasn't done, but that will come out in the investigation.

Alaska isn't typically in the blame game, and they were pretty quick to publically call out Boeing which was something I had never seen before. All signs point to Boeing on this...

 

[Minuteman]

A friend of mine works at a large company where many of their managers “end up” at Boeing after being a source of lots of happy-hour tales of waste and idiocy. I am not at all surprised.

For the record, the people I hear about are already diverse-ish; 50% upper-middle-age white-collar white guys, another 30% in a pool of women, non-white men, and non-white women and first-generation immigrants (I feel ridiculous making those divisions, but that’s where diversity is at). The remaining 20% is offshored to sites with lower-cost labor. For a large company, they seem to be making a dent.

The thing that seems to unite them all is the desire to fall in-line. I’m told they mostly all want to do their 18-30 months in a managerial role they don’t really have the experience to oversee, then move on to a new role before the consequences of weak management manifests on their watch. Like Stalin’s “Write Two Letters” thing.

So I can totally imagine a few decades of this style of shopkeeping being an absolute drain on a culture of quality and engineering integrity. That’s not writing-off the whole business, but there’s no opportunity for it to flourish when managers don’t know enough to make it a priority compared to reporting-up and playing-along with what finance wants.

 

[pwttogfk]

Building airplanes is complicated. Sometimes the holes in the Swiss cheese line up to cause an event like this even with a design that’s been trouble free for decades.

As an example, I was part of investigating an incident with a loose fuel line. The line was torqued to a certain value and checked by QA. Later on in the production process something else nearby (I forget what) also had to be checked by QA. The inspectors found it easier to accomplish that task with the fuel line removed…so they generally did. And nobody re-checked the torque afterwards. This was on a small plane that’s been in production since 1997 and there weren’t any problems for 20+ years. I can only imagine the possible traps in an airliner production line.

 

[Richman]

A friend of mine works at a large company where many of their managers “end up” at Boeing after being a source of lots of happy-hour tales of waste and idiocy. I am not at all surprised.

For the record, the people I hear about are already diverse-ish; 50% upper-middle-age white-collar white guys, another 30% in a pool of women, non-white men, and non-white women and first-generation immigrants (I feel ridiculous making those divisions, but that’s where diversity is at). The remaining 20% is offshored to sites with lower-cost labor. For a large company, they seem to be making a dent.

The thing that seems to unite them all is the desire to fall in-line. I’m told they mostly all want to do their 18-30 months in a managerial role they don’t really have the experience to oversee, then move on to a new role before the consequences of weak management manifests on their watch. Like Stalin’s “Write Two Letters” thing.

So I can totally imagine a few decades of this style of shopkeeping being an absolute drain on a culture of quality and engineering integrity. That’s not writing-off the whole business, but there’s no opportunity for it to flourish when managers don’t know enough to make it a priority compared to reporting-up and playing-along with what finance wants.

You can always tell management’s priorities from where the HQ is located.

I always laugh at outsourcing. The company who makes your parts or provides your service doesn’t share your goals, they’re only concerned with their goals. Sure, there might be some intersection of the two, but that area smaller than you think. When push comes to shove they’re looking out for their bottom line, not yours.