Obama administration and user fees

[JordanD]

I remember reading in AOPA's mag that Obama was against user fees.

I remember reading the opposite. That he wanted to use "reasonable" taxes and fees or something to that effect. McCain's attitude in the interview seemed more like "well I don't care what they do but they need to do something." I was a little more weary of that since that can mean anything.

 

[Ian_J]

Tell me this is thick sarcasm?

I think it is.

 

[WacoFan]

Ask people about FITS training. Your ideas are being done. It has its good points, but when it comes down to it, you need experience. Period. You can put someone in an FTD all you want, you can chop training minimums, you can use a scenario on every flight, and you can know everything about everything getting in the airplane, but it will never ever replace experience. I thought I knew how to fly IFR when I finished my CFII. I was dead wrong. I have way more experience now than I did then, but I'm just beginning to learn what I don't know.

There is really nothing in your post that I disagree with at all. I am just saying that flight training will have to be reinvented if users fees pass in order to make it economically sound.

 

[HeyEng]

Perhaps you need some "re-education." How could you be against user fees? It's about those who HAVE giving back to the system. Do you think it's fair that you get to use an airport, ATC systems etc (even while VFR you're being watched by radar most likely, separation with IFR traffic) and not pay? Hard, working class and poor families are too heavily burdened to pay for this. Plus, any extra revenue could go help pay for a nationalized health care system which would help us all.

Sorry you don't see the big picture...

Now someone find me some dominoes and a '57 Chevy to work on!!

Oh for s sake. This is exactly what will happen. If the user fees come to pass, how much of it will REALLY be used for the NAS? Besides, we know the fuel tax ain't going away, so it'll be an additional tax. And for those that say that "GA" doesn't pay their way....that is crap. Every gallon I pay for AvGas, 19 cents goes to the feds.

 

[Baronman]

It is..

I thought maybe the domino/Chevy joke at the end would tip you off. Get it..like Cuba...Domino's and old Chevys.

 

[granlistillo]

Killing off GA will not solve the multiple detractions in my airline career. I know there are some that think that if it was so expensive to train, and 95% of the flight schools went tango uniform, that we would all be living the life of Riley. eh, no...

That is the only plausible reason I could see for ANY pilot supporting a broad based implementation of a user fee schedule. Apart from smelling of "I got mine so pull up the ladder", this is not a good idea. Aviation/Aerospace is still where the US leads in this world. Anybody want to know the European perspective, ask them. Or lurk on PPPrune. They will overwhelming tell you the US system is the best in the world.

If you do happen to do any flying in Europe, brush up on your out of radar contact icao position reporting and your NDB approaches. You will need them both, and please dont go missed on your NDB or you mary get double charged. But hey, why should the government keep on the cutting edge, if there are not a lot airplanes or pilots in the sky?

As far choking the airline pilot supply? nah, but remember in Europe students all pay for their type rating and then off they go to the right seat in a 737-800 or A321 with their 200 TT.


Puh-ah-lease

 

[HeyEng]

I remember reading the opposite. That he wanted to use "reasonable" taxes and fees or something to that effect. McCain's attitude in the interview seemed more like "well I don't care what they do but they need to do something." I was a little more weary of that since that can mean anything.

What he said was:

"I believe we must continue to use an appropriate mixture of reasonable taxes and fees to fund the FAA."

http://www.aopa.org/feature/election08/q4.html

Continue: Keep or maintain in unaltered condition; cause to remain or last; "preserve the peace in the family"; "continue the family tradition"; "Carry on the old traditions"

Sure seems like he doesn't want to CONTINUE what is in place now. What a big surprise.


Oh, this thread is giving me bad heartburn. Think I am going to log off, hit the airport, maybe cruise the pattern for a few laps (before I have to pay a user fee) and then hang out with my GA brethren buddies. I bet after a few beers, we will be able to solve all the worlds problems...I'm out. Enjoy the conversation.

 

[Velocipede]

OK, this argument about "disposable income" and "you should pay the fees" is crap. Velo, I know you make more money than I do but somehow I am able to support my hobby of GA... Amazing how a pro union guy will stand up for an airline when it comes to sticking it to the little guy.

Hey, no one is questioning how you spend your disposable income. Its just time to pay for the services you use. The free ride is over.

Seriously I find it incredible that some airline guys believe the user fees will give them more leverage. Airlines WILL come up with something (MPL, Ab-initio, lower minimums drastically etc etc etc) to offset the "pilot shortage"..

I guess you didn't get the memo about the 1875 AA pilots on furlough.

Closer to the point-we can all say goodbye to GA if this passes.

WOLF! Guys will figure out how to pay for their hobbies whether its a Harley or a Cessna.

But here's the thing..I think some of you guys are taking an alarmist position on this. I really doubt GA user fees will end up making GA flying cost prohibitive. Think about it..if they slap a $10 dollar fee on every single or light twin that files an IFR flight plan in addition to 121 , 135 and part 91 operators, that will translate to tens of millions of dollars annually. If you can't cough up another ten bucks then well....you may want to think about a part time job at McDonald's or drink one less twelve pack a week or something. Now if the fees are excessive (which there is no reason yet to assume they will be) that will indeed be a problem.

AMEN RSG! What the GA boys tend to forget is that the airlines will get the same "user fees." Except you won't see any 737s buzzing around VFR (except maybe between WRG and PSG!).

Killing off GA will not solve the multiple detractions in my airline career.

Again, user fees won't kill off anything. If you want to fly your bug smasher, you just may have to reorient your priorities as RSG suggests.

As far choking the airline pilot supply? nah, but remember in Europe students all pay for their type rating and then off they go to the right seat in a 737-800 or A321 with their 200 TT.

And Lufthansa, one of the airlines that does this has one of the best safety records in the world. Ever heard of the Air Force? They put pilots in the right seat of C-130s, C-17s, KC-10s and other crew served airplanes with that level of experience as well.

And (GASP!) the Navy has fighter pilots flying around alone with less than 500 hrs total time.

So what's your point?

 

[granlistillo]

Yeah, maybe that would simply estimate the cost and lump it into the loan - but that assumes a stable cost, and taxes once started are not always stable - they generally go up. It is a brilliant plan if Obama and the dems want to kill GA which they very well may want to do. I mean, who really gives a crap about Wichita, KS?
------------------
Just rambling here - if user fees come to pass, the flight training industry would have to innovate and the FAA would also have to show some flexiblity toward new training methods and alter their rules somewhat. That said, the German program of putting the kids into gliders created what could arguably be called some of the greatest pilots in the world. Look up the list of Fighter Aces - Everyone over 80 kills (Richtofen) is a German from WWII - all the way up to Erich Hartmann with 352 kills.

WacoFan,

Interesting thoughts.

I think Hartman's flying almost exclusively on the Eastern front until the waning days of the war where the fronts came together, gave him to quote my favorite movie aviator, what is known as "Target Rich Environment".

WWII trivia aside, the way European flight schools do training, compared to the US system is totally different. It is design to put guys in the right seat of an airliner at 200 TTor get him a vfr ppl. AND VERY LITTLE in between. A lot of theory, very structured flight training, and a you have your licenses/ratings. Do a MCC sim and off you go to the airlines. You will either have to buy a type or enter into a training bond most likely.

BTW, i grew up in Wichita so I have a soft spot for GA...

 

[meritflyer]

Hey, no one is questioning how you spend your disposable income. Its just time to pay for the services you use. The free ride is over.

Then, you wont have problem with the government charging you with a whole host of new vehicle use fees I suppose? You use the roads right? Snow removel, maintenance, Highway Patrol, medical services, and so on are all still fee-free last time I checked as their paid for with the gas tax, state income, fed income, etc.

And Lufthansa, one of the airlines that does this has one of the best safety records in the world. Ever heard of the Air Force? They put pilots in the right seat of C-130s, C-17s, KC-10s and other crew served airplanes with that level of experience as well.

And (GASP!) the Navy has fighter pilots flying around alone with less than 500 hrs total time.

We get it. You were once Iceman and now you're a bus driver.

 

[Velocipede]

merit,

You ever see the gas taxes in WA state? Check it out. I DO PAY.

 

[meritflyer]

merit,

You ever see the gas taxes in WA state? Check it out. I DO PAY.

SO DOES EVERY GA PILOT!

They already pay gas taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and so forth. Now you're advocating they pay a user fee. You should pay one for your automobile as well.

 

[Velocipede]

I do, its called a license plate fee.

You know its amazing to me how angy people get when they think they're about to lose their good deal/free ride.

Wow.

 

[meritflyer]

I do, its called a license plate fee.

You know its amazing to me how angy people get when they think they're about to lose their good deal/free ride.

Wow.

So does a GA plane. You pay annual registration fees already.

It's not anger. It's called not wanting to support stupidity that comes in the form of government waste.

Beyond that, I would say you're done.

 

[granlistillo]

And Lufthansa, one of the airlines that does this has one of the best safety records in the world. Ever heard of the Air Force? They put pilots in the right seat of C-130s, C-17s, KC-10s and other crew served airplanes with that level of experience as well.

And (GASP!) the Navy has fighter pilots flying around alone with less than 500 hrs total time.

So what's your point?

You just made my point. The us military can wing a pilot in 200 hrs and a JAA FTO can do the same. So for those who think (and there have been 2 posts on this thread) that it would be nice if user fees restricted the pilot supply for leverage; I simply am pointing out that is most probably a false premise.

As far as ME, moi complaining about low timers in a cockpit of a jet? Well that would be funny on so many levels...

 

[MikeD]

I don't like fees that nickel and dime me and I don't even know where the heck they're going to.....besides what the government says they're going to. And if you believe that....

To those that want to pay more taxes or don't feel like they're contributing enough, go ahead and write a check to the government and mail it in. Feel free, it's your right. Just don't legislate that I have to do so just because you want to.

 

[WacoFan]

WacoFan,

Interesting thoughts.

I think Hartman's flying almost exclusively on the Eastern front until the waning days of the war where the fronts came together, gave him to quote my favorite movie aviator, what is known as "Target Rich Environment".

WWII trivia aside, the way European flight schools do training, compared to the US system is totally different. It is design to put guys in the right seat of an airliner at 200 TTor get him a vfr ppl. AND VERY LITTLE in between. A lot of theory, very structured flight training, and a you have your licenses/ratings. Do a MCC sim and off you go to the airlines. You will either have to buy a type or enter into a training bond most likely.

BTW, i grew up in Wichita so I have a soft spot for GA...

I agree with the Hartmann thoughts - absolutely had a target rich environment. Another question that comes to mind is "why did the Soviet pilots suck so badly, and uniformly?" You could say that their airplanes were not as good as the Germans (ME109's against the old Polikarpov's until the USSR got Airacobra's and stuff) but that argument doesn't hold water because the Finn's absolutely tore them up and they flew REALLY anitquated crap - and even achieved a 450 to 16 kill ratio with Brewster Buffalo's which the USMC and USN scrapped after very little time. Overall the Finns decimated the USSR in the air - really impressive.

I am just fascinated with flight training because I have a concept of my ideal flight school that I would love to have someday. It would be hideously expensive but would go something like this:

1) Gliders (primary)
2) Moving into Aeronca Champs (primary - solo)
3) Moving into Stearmans or Waco UPF-7's (basic aerobatics)
4) Moving to T-6's (Advanced training, begining instruments, Commercial)
5) Moving into Beech 18's (initial multi, instrument, multi-commercial)
6) Moving into DC-3's. (Type rating)

I am not sure how much I would price this at - perhaps $200k.

 

[darrenf]

Where are all the Obamites to defend their glorious new leaders plan?

There is no defending this plan.

 

[The Gardener]

4 pages of hype about this and we still don't have any specifics of how the charges will be set.

The Bush admin. tried to do this during their 8 years and failed, the Obama administration will fail too.

It is all going to come down to the fact that the majority of ATC services are there to support the airlines (regardless of how much use they incur vs GA). Everybody knows that they wont shell out any more money so it will be dropped from the budget again.

The NAS is a service provided by the government similar to law enforcement and fire protection (even though most of those agencies are on a state/local level) if the users are charged a fee then people wont be using the services. This will lower air safety for the general public and that would be bad.

Lets get some specifics before we panic everybody! sheesh.

 

[Toonces]

merit,

You ever see the gas taxes in WA state? Check it out. I DO PAY.

<...> One minute you are trying to convince people that GA "needs to pay their own way" then you ignore the tax on Avgas. You then say that user fees for highway driving are bunk because of the taxes you pay for gasoline.

Pretty much ALL gasoline bought at the pump is burnt on state and federal roads. The guys burning Avgas are definately not always using ATC sevices yet they always pay their Avgas tax. Your logic has some holes in it there comrad.