Obama administration and user fees

Many people who do not have children pay for public schools. Apparently everybody is going to pay for these bad mortgages (How could anybody making $42k/yr think they could afford a $589k townhouse--real example?). My taxes pay for the Coast Guard to fish people out of the drink and for the upkeep of numerous national parks that I have never visited. To justify this BS, he'd have to make every road a toll, and make 911 a 900 number ($50/call).

We've seen what turning FSS into a business has done. Local knowledge is priceless, and that is gone.

This all falls under the realm of "public good." Just think of the added bureaucracy that will be needed to regulate this fiasco.

meritflyer said:
This will promote carelessness in ADM and I believe, will promote more VFR into IFR accidents.
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Not to make light of recent events, but how many scud-runners will have to hit houses before the government realizes this was a bad idea.
 
deadstick said:
Not to make light of recent events, but how many scud-runners will have to hit houses before the government realizes this was a bad idea.
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If the government can get another tax on users, what's a plane crash or two every year because a pilot didn't want to pay for a briefing or had a VFR into IMC accident?

This administration is incredibly foolish.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I'd like there to be fewer pilots as well to increase bargaining leverage but I don't see user fees flying, pun intended, in this country at this time. But depending on how the economy goes I can see it happening by 2011.

I don't like user fees, I've flown in the UK and it is pretty awful.
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I'm pretty certain that these user fees will end up just getting lumped into the cost of training for the loans, etc.

You goto flight school pre user fees, services would cost 36k (or whatever).

Now after user fees services will cost 46k.

People will still be dropping the coin to come fly for a living. I'm not necessarily sold on how it'll decrease those coming into the profession. It'll decrease the weekend warrior who wants to fly IFR.
 
granlistillo said:
You got to be kidding. This idea that money raised by user fee will be earmarked for NAS system improvements is a joke. A bunch of smoke, mirrors and wooden dollars. Every dollar taken in will evaporate in the treasury probable as a expenditure for research on the mating habits of gophers. Only in the USA do politicians have the chutzpah to use terms like "social security trust fund or lock box."
GA pays taxes everytime they pump avgas, a whole lot of them never use ATC services. By all means if you want to reduce safety, please undermine the finest GA system in the world. But who pays the user fees for the NTSB investigations??

Penny unwise and Pound super foolish.
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Great post. Granlistillo is the man.
 
I'm not a supporter of GA user fees especially since the majority of GA flights (not talking corporate part 91 stuff) don't use the ATC system anyway unless it actually is IFR. The heavy users of the system should really be paying, airlines, corporate flight departments, charter etc...

But this could be done in a way that would be a lesser slap in the face..they could merely charge an annual fee of say $100 to $500 depending on how often you use the system, aircraft weight class or something...I mean c'mon..if you can afford to fly GA at all in this economy then whether owner or renter I think you can cough up another couple hundred a year..

But again I'll state I don't support this..just playing Devil's Advocate for discussion sake..
 
deadstick said:
Not to make light of recent events, but how many scud-runners will have to hit houses before the government realizes this was a bad idea.
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If this happens, I could very easily a shutdown of general aviation for leisure travel. Equating high risk operations with people who have to scud run because they feel they are entitled to fly.

Being able to fly is a luxury, you have disposable income like it's been said before. If you can't afford, you can't go, the end. It sucks, yes, but I also didn't get to live in times when USA manufactured Coca Cola was make from real sugar and I could pay a nickle for it, or when rebuilding car engines was required in high school, or when I could just go out and shoot off some spectacular fireworks. Times are changing, period.

The pilot shortage thing wont matter, because airlines will start doing the ab-initio stuff like they do in other countries. Does it suck for me? Yes. Does it suck for everyone who wants to fly for fun? Yes. Can't deny the sentiment, but we're one of the last developed nations to go into this system?
 
surreal1221 said:
I'm pretty certain that these user fees will end up just getting lumped into the cost of training for the loans, etc.

You goto flight school pre user fees, services would cost 36k (or whatever).

Now after user fees services will cost 46k.

People will still be dropping the coin to come fly for a living. I'm not necessarily sold on how it'll decrease those coming into the profession. It'll decrease the weekend warrior who wants to fly IFR.
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Yeah, maybe that would simply estimate the cost and lump it into the loan - but that assumes a stable cost, and taxes once started are not always stable - they generally go up. It is a brilliant plan if Obama and the dems want to kill GA which they very well may want to do. I mean, who really gives a crap about Wichita, KS?

Another alternative is that it would potentially create innovation in flight training which may not be all bad anyway. The Germans had a pretty good system of training back in the 30's where they were first putting people (kids) into gliders and teaching them huge amounts that way before they ever got into powered planes (which were limited due to the treaty of Versailles). So -I could envision training programs that focused upon airplane control, stalls, spins, airmanship done in gliders (no user fees - can be winched or towed by auto so potentially no tow plane needed - the Germans launched off hills). IFR, navigation using modern avionics, etc can be taught a lot in sims and FTDS so that when you actually had to get into a plane you had the basic knowledge and just had to apply that to flying and controlling the airplane.

Just rambling here - if user fees come to pass, the flight training industry would have to innovate and the FAA would also have to show some flexiblity toward new training methods and alter their rules somewhat. That said, the German program of putting the kids into gliders created what could arguably be called some of the greatest pilots in the world. Look up the list of Fighter Aces - Everyone over 80 kills (Richtofen) is a German from WWII - all the way up to Erich Hartmann with 352 kills.

EDIT: My statement about all Pilots above 80 Victories being German is not true. There are two Japanese Aces and a Finnish pilot with over 80 kills. HUGE list of German pilots though - very long list of pilots between 80 kills and 352 kills which was the most ever.
 
I guess GA jobs are not jobs that Obama will save. I gaurantee you I am not wealthy, being a CFI. This will make me jobless though.
 
I remember reading in AOPA's mag that Obama was against user fees. My limit of reneged campaing promises is about 10 before I start losing respect for a guy.

While it may not look like it now, there is a pilot shortage in the world. If these user fees do indeed go in to effect, I wonder what the effect will be on people wanting to fly as a career. My assumption would be that once the user fees go in to effect the number of student pilots will decline. In the short run, I don't think it would create a dramatic effect. however, 5-10 years down the road, if these user fees do go in to effect and its as expensive to fly in the U.S. as it is in Europe, pilots are going to be pretty hard to come by. The silver lining to the cloud might be that pilot's will finally have the leverage they need to make an income befitting of thier knowledge, professionalism, and responsibilites.

In either case, I take this as a significant dissappointment. Especially since Obama is a guy I respect...for now.
 
I'll restate before I post..I do not support GA user fees.

But here's the thing..I think some of you guys are taking an alarmist position on this. I really doubt GA user fees will end up making GA flying cost prohibitive. Think about it..if they slap a $10 dollar fee on every single or light twin that files an IFR flight plan in addition to 121 , 135 and part 91 operators, that will translate to tens of millions of dollars annually. If you can't cough up another ten bucks then well....you may want to think about a part time job at McDonald's or drink one less twelve pack a week or something. Now if the fees are excessive (which there is no reason yet to assume they will be) that will indeed be a problem.
 
DL31082 said:
I guess GA jobs are not jobs that Obama will save. I gaurantee you I am not wealthy, being a CFI. This will make me jobless though.
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Don't think of it as jobless my friend. Think of it as "stimulated into another profession that is not of my choosing!". Thinking of it that way should make take some of the sting away. Using the exclamation point helps - makes it feel exciting!
 
OhioStatePilot said:
I don't know about any of you, but I'm already planning a well thought out letter to my representatives.
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I have a feeling that unless they get floods and floods of letters on the same issue, they're just going to pretty much ignore it.
Hopefully what would happen (aside from this plan failing) is that they replace the avgas tax with this so that you end up paying the same that you are now.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I'll restate before I post..I do not support GA user fees.

But here's the thing..I think some of you guys are taking an alarmist position on this. I really doubt GA user fees will end up making GA flying cost prohibitive. Think about it..if they slap a $10 dollar fee on every single or light twin that files an IFR flight plan in addition to 121 , 135 and part 91 operators, that will translate to tens of millions of dollars annually. If you can't cough up another ten bucks then well....you may want to think about a part time job at McDonald's or drink one less twelve pack a week or something. Now if the fees are excessive (which there is no reason yet to assume they will be) that will indeed be a problem.
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There is a problem here...we are already taxed to death. I am not going to list them because there are already too many. As I stated before, you don't have to be wealthy to fly a little airplane. I can promise that my plane cost me less than most peoples cars do. I know that there is wealth envy in this country, but damn, there is a lot of middle class envy too. If you support "a little extra here" then if you like using the internet, you should pay a nickle for every post you make. You like the internet, so surely you should support it and pay just a little extra, right? It's just a nickle anyway. The point is that they all add up to huge numbers of dollars...man, I am so livid right now I can spit nails.

No one will address why those that DON'T have kids don't get any tax breaks, but those that do get great breaks...and it's only going to get better for those with kids. How the hell is that fair?!? So, I will support user fees when those that use "the system" (schools) pay user fees and those that don't get their property tax back. And oh yeah, I want an "Earned No Kids" credit too. It's only fair, right?
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I mean c'mon..if you can afford to fly GA at all in this economy then whether owner or renter I think you can cough up another couple hundred a year.
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This type of mentality is absolutely unreal. I don't know about you lady but most of the guys I know fly/rent scrape pennies to do so. In fact, everyone I've really ever flown with has flight loans and serious costs that were/are associated with their training (which is done in a GA plane and usually a regional airport). So, why don't we stack a few more bucks on to their bill eh? Sound idea.

Maybe since I can afford a few hundred extra dollars a year, you can forward me your address and I'll send it to you?
 
Ian J said:
I'm an Obama supporter and I am against user fees.
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Perhaps you need some "re-education." How could you be against user fees? It's about those who HAVE giving back to the system. Do you think it's fair that you get to use an airport, ATC systems etc (even while VFR you're being watched by radar most likely, separation with IFR traffic) and not pay? Hard, working class and poor families are too heavily burdened to pay for this. Plus, any extra revenue could go help pay for a nationalized health care system which would help us all.

Sorry you don't see the big picture...

Now someone find me some dominoes and a '57 Chevy to work on!!
 
Baronman said:
Perhaps you need some "re-education." How could you be against user fees? It's about those who HAVE giving back to the system. Do you think it's fair that you get to use an airport, ATC systems etc (even while VFR you're being watched by radar most likely, separation with IFR traffic) and not pay? Hard, working class and poor families are too heavily burdened to pay for this. Plus, any extra revenue could go help pay for a nationalized health care system which would help us all.

Sorry you don't see the big picture...

Now someone find me some dominoes and a '57 Chevy to work on!!
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Tell me this is thick sarcasm?
 
WacoFan said:
So -I could envision training programs that focused upon airplane control, stalls, spins, airmanship done in gliders (no user fees - can be winched or towed by auto so potentially no tow plane needed - the Germans launched off hills). IFR, navigation using modern avionics, etc can be taught a lot in sims and FTDS so that when you actually had to get into a plane you had the basic knowledge and just had to apply that to flying and controlling the airplane.

Just rambling here - if user fees come to pass, the flight training industry would have to innovate and the FAA would also have to show some flexiblity toward new training methods and alter their rules somewhat.
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Ask people about FITS training. Your ideas are being done. It has its good points, but when it comes down to it, you need experience. Period. You can put someone in an FTD all you want, you can chop training minimums, you can use a scenario on every flight, and you can know everything about everything getting in the airplane, but it will never ever replace experience. I thought I knew how to fly IFR when I finished my CFII. I was dead wrong. I have way more experience now than I did then, but I'm just beginning to learn what I don't know.
 
BajtheJino said:
Closer to the point-we can all say goodbye to GA if this passes.
The lib's desire to be more like Europe is coming to fruition.
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But but but they are so progressive over there! And everyone is happy! And everything is good!
 
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