Honestly taxing is one of my least favorite things to do in an airplane. The nose gear on an MD11 is 21’ behind us. Taxing into a congested parking spot isn’t fun, I just don’t want to kill someone I can’t see. A lot of faith in marshalers who umm don’t give you a lot of confidence, especially in Memphis.
NTSB - Preliminary Report A350 v. CRJ (ATL)
- Thread starter JEP
- Start date
greg1016
Trustworthy Source
^^^this
I thought this was the point of these discussions, and why I brought up the CRJ being so far back in the first place. Not to place blame, but to examine all the factors. It is absolutely one of the holes in the Swiss Cheese.
ERfly
Well-Known Member
I tell people the three scariest things about my job are taxiing on the ramp (and I'm not the one doing the taxiing), the bus ride to and from AOC and the drive to and from home. All 3 involve Memphis!
Tons of respect for each of you MD-11 CAs! There were times I had no idea how you were doing what you did in that thing! Beyond impressive and my head was on a giant swivel until the marshaller told us to release brakes once we were parked! (Same, but not quite as nerve-wracking in the 767)
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Some poked larger holes in the cheese than others
greg1016
Trustworthy Source
Still part of the chain...Sure the primary responsibility goes to the moving aircraft, but pilots do dumb crap all the time and holding short 50ft from the hold short line is one of those dumb things. It is a chance to raise awareness. I'll bet someone on this forum does it too and maybe they learn something from reading this discussion. If the CRJ had been at the hold short line, an inattentive or distracted A350 crew would be a non-factor.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Exactly. Flip them around. If they left 56 ft sticking out on the runway after exiting we’d be talking about a tragedy instead of whoopsie.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
We also have to remember that the CRJ crew is just in the normal conga line cadence, and when its their turn they dont tuck up to the line right away. Doubtful they had any idea that someone would be taxiing behind them. Point being, It wouldve been nice had they been up to the line, but i think the reason we are splitting hairs on where they stopped is because an unforseen event happened. Its unusual for someone to taxibehind you there. Even if they are tucked up, I doubt the 350 wouldve attempted to taxi by if they had really been focused in. I believe they just got distracted on the ECAM, rushed to comply, and were looking in the wrong direction rather than "Oh i think we have enough room".
Airline Aviation safety has moved away from blame culture, with the goal of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt of not being an idiot, and figuring out the best course of action for everyone to learn from and how the system and training can be improved to mitigate an accident from happening again. Its a part of regulatory SMS, and it works well....
...But me sitting around a bar with other pilots, (or hanging at dougs house), I find it hard to place much "blame" at all on the 50 feet the CRJ is back behind the line, especially when the line up to the holdshort line is curved right up to the line. We dont all taxi up to 0 feet behind the line, so whats good? 10 feet? 5? So how far off was he really? Would it have helped in this situation, yes, but in every ground accident it would be nice if the other airplane wasnt where it was.
It is a recent emphasis item, especially with ADS-X technology to clear the runway fully. We have had situations where some are slow to clear, or hold for some perceived traffic or ramp clearance etc and will leave their ass (YCTSA) hanging over the holdshort line setting off ADS-X sensor for an aircraft that was cleared for takeoff after you accepted the taxi off/switch to ground clearance. Maybe you ATCers can add color there.
I think there are always lessons to be learned, but I think more on the thread have freaked over the 50 feet and not a crew of 4 smashing the tail off a parked airplane. A lesson I would take away is slow down, dont rush. I wouldnt have confessed to ATC that we had an issue so quickly, give it a second. And pull up a little closer to the holdshort line. It would be nice if widebodies have some tech to improved warnings for wingtip clearance or more complete camera angles.
Airline Aviation safety has moved away from blame culture, with the goal of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt of not being an idiot, and figuring out the best course of action for everyone to learn from and how the system and training can be improved to mitigate an accident from happening again. Its a part of regulatory SMS, and it works well....
...But me sitting around a bar with other pilots, (or hanging at dougs house), I find it hard to place much "blame" at all on the 50 feet the CRJ is back behind the line, especially when the line up to the holdshort line is curved right up to the line. We dont all taxi up to 0 feet behind the line, so whats good? 10 feet? 5? So how far off was he really? Would it have helped in this situation, yes, but in every ground accident it would be nice if the other airplane wasnt where it was.
It is a recent emphasis item, especially with ADS-X technology to clear the runway fully. We have had situations where some are slow to clear, or hold for some perceived traffic or ramp clearance etc and will leave their ass (YCTSA) hanging over the holdshort line setting off ADS-X sensor for an aircraft that was cleared for takeoff after you accepted the taxi off/switch to ground clearance. Maybe you ATCers can add color there.
I think there are always lessons to be learned, but I think more on the thread have freaked over the 50 feet and not a crew of 4 smashing the tail off a parked airplane. A lesson I would take away is slow down, dont rush. I wouldnt have confessed to ATC that we had an issue so quickly, give it a second. And pull up a little closer to the holdshort line. It would be nice if widebodies have some tech to improved warnings for wingtip clearance or more complete camera angles.
KLB
Well-Known Member
In reality. We can see so much of the picture. I'm not one to snug up behind large jets while in line waiting for departure. For all I know, the CRJ sat there in order to not get blasted by the jet in front of them and just hadn't moved yet while the other jet was turning the corner to line up for takeoff.
Also the hold short is a line not to cross and isn't defined as a line to pull up to...technically you've caused a runway incursion just for the nose crossing it.
This incident looks to be just a series of unfortunate circumstances where where both parties could use a little SA.
Also the hold short is a line not to cross and isn't defined as a line to pull up to...technically you've caused a runway incursion just for the nose crossing it.
This incident looks to be just a series of unfortunate circumstances where where both parties could use a little SA.
T/O w/FSII
Well-Known Member
I have see this here and on other pages from a few people now.
To those who don’t/wont or don’t think you have to pull up to the line. Why do you think that?
You don’t get to just pick arbitrary spots on the airport to stop just because you have to stop eventually.
To those who don’t/wont or don’t think you have to pull up to the line. Why do you think that?
You don’t get to just pick arbitrary spots on the airport to stop just because you have to stop eventually.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
KLB just gave you a scenario one post above.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Dear OughtaBeALaw:
I'm sorry that people aren't always using your technique. Perhaps you should contact standards to try and have it made into procedure.
Signed,
- SomeoneWhoPullsUpToLines
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Let’s not discount that the 350 crew has probably taxied by many a CRJ at that exact spot without incident so many times before it never occurred to them that A they would have any clearance problem and B that the CRJ is so far back from the hold short line that it would cause an issue in the first place.
Disclaimer. Confirmation bias is real and a capt is responsible for his ship.
Disclaimer. Confirmation bias is real and a capt is responsible for his ship.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
When I give traffic calls I call it a Canabus
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
One difference between taxing a widebody and a narrowbody is that you never, ever assume anything. It was a bit of a mind shift to make, but once you are there, you don't taxi the same way ever again.
20kts also looks like 10kts initially
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Airplanes hitting stationary objects, you say? I’m pretty sure the statutes of limitations on this have expired by now…
It’s 2 jobs and 7 years ago now, I should start dropping some of the pictures I have of •ed up • from my air taxi mechanic days here and there.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Sometimes you have to just find that one obstacle and drive straight at it. Cheers?
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Nooo not the yellow bird
how