NTSB - Preliminary Report A350 v. CRJ (ATL)

Honestly taxing is one of my least favorite things to do in an airplane. The nose gear on an MD11 is 21’ behind us. Taxing into a congested parking spot isn’t fun, I just don’t want to kill someone I can’t see. A lot of faith in marshalers who umm don’t give you a lot of confidence, especially in Memphis.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Wouldn't it be cool if we could learn from this incident and the causal factors that led it it, without pointing fingers and saying "it's their fault!"
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^^^this

I thought this was the point of these discussions, and why I brought up the CRJ being so far back in the first place. Not to place blame, but to examine all the factors. It is absolutely one of the holes in the Swiss Cheese.
 
mikecweb said:
Honestly taxing is one of my least favorite things to do in an airplane. The nose gear on an MD11 is 21’ behind us. Taxing into a congested parking spot isn’t fun, I just don’t want to kill someone I can’t see. A lot of faith in marshalers who umm don’t give you a lot of confidence, especially in Memphis.
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I tell people the three scariest things about my job are taxiing on the ramp (and I'm not the one doing the taxiing), the bus ride to and from AOC and the drive to and from home. All 3 involve Memphis!

Tons of respect for each of you MD-11 CAs! There were times I had no idea how you were doing what you did in that thing! Beyond impressive and my head was on a giant swivel until the marshaller told us to release brakes once we were parked! (Same, but not quite as nerve-wracking in the 767)
 
greg1016 said:
^^^this

I thought this was the point of these discussions, and why I brought up the CRJ being so far back in the first place. Not to place blame, but to examine all the factors. It is absolutely one of the holes in the Swiss Cheese.
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Some poked larger holes in the cheese than others
 
Kingairer said:
Some poked larger holes in the cheese than others
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Still part of the chain...Sure the primary responsibility goes to the moving aircraft, but pilots do dumb crap all the time and holding short 50ft from the hold short line is one of those dumb things. It is a chance to raise awareness. I'll bet someone on this forum does it too and maybe they learn something from reading this discussion. If the CRJ had been at the hold short line, an inattentive or distracted A350 crew would be a non-factor.
 
We also have to remember that the CRJ crew is just in the normal conga line cadence, and when its their turn they dont tuck up to the line right away. Doubtful they had any idea that someone would be taxiing behind them. Point being, It wouldve been nice had they been up to the line, but i think the reason we are splitting hairs on where they stopped is because an unforseen event happened. Its unusual for someone to taxibehind you there. Even if they are tucked up, I doubt the 350 wouldve attempted to taxi by if they had really been focused in. I believe they just got distracted on the ECAM, rushed to comply, and were looking in the wrong direction rather than "Oh i think we have enough room".

Airline Aviation safety has moved away from blame culture, with the goal of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt of not being an idiot, and figuring out the best course of action for everyone to learn from and how the system and training can be improved to mitigate an accident from happening again. Its a part of regulatory SMS, and it works well....

...But me sitting around a bar with other pilots, (or hanging at dougs house), I find it hard to place much "blame" at all on the 50 feet the CRJ is back behind the line, especially when the line up to the holdshort line is curved right up to the line. We dont all taxi up to 0 feet behind the line, so whats good? 10 feet? 5? So how far off was he really? Would it have helped in this situation, yes, but in every ground accident it would be nice if the other airplane wasnt where it was.

It is a recent emphasis item, especially with ADS-X technology to clear the runway fully. We have had situations where some are slow to clear, or hold for some perceived traffic or ramp clearance etc and will leave their ass (YCTSA) hanging over the holdshort line setting off ADS-X sensor for an aircraft that was cleared for takeoff after you accepted the taxi off/switch to ground clearance. Maybe you ATCers can add color there.

I think there are always lessons to be learned, but I think more on the thread have freaked over the 50 feet and not a crew of 4 smashing the tail off a parked airplane. A lesson I would take away is slow down, dont rush. I wouldnt have confessed to ATC that we had an issue so quickly, give it a second. And pull up a little closer to the holdshort line. It would be nice if widebodies have some tech to improved warnings for wingtip clearance or more complete camera angles.
 
In reality. We can see so much of the picture. I'm not one to snug up behind large jets while in line waiting for departure. For all I know, the CRJ sat there in order to not get blasted by the jet in front of them and just hadn't moved yet while the other jet was turning the corner to line up for takeoff.

Also the hold short is a line not to cross and isn't defined as a line to pull up to...technically you've caused a runway incursion just for the nose crossing it.

This incident looks to be just a series of unfortunate circumstances where where both parties could use a little SA.
 
I have see this here and on other pages from a few people now.

To those who don’t/wont or don’t think you have to pull up to the line. Why do you think that?

You don’t get to just pick arbitrary spots on the airport to stop just because you have to stop eventually.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
I have see this here and on other pages from a few people now.

To those who don’t/wont or don’t think you have to pull up to the line. Why do you think that?

You don’t get to just pick arbitrary spots on the airport to stop just because you have to stop eventually.
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KLB just gave you a scenario one post above.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
I have see this here and on other pages from a few people now.

To those who don’t/wont or don’t think you have to pull up to the line. Why do you think that?

You don’t get to just pick arbitrary spots on the airport to stop just because you have to stop eventually.
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Dear OughtaBeALaw:
I'm sorry that people aren't always using your technique. Perhaps you should contact standards to try and have it made into procedure.

Signed,
- SomeoneWhoPullsUpToLines
 
🦈💜 said:
Dear OughtaBeALaw:
I'm sorry that people aren't always using your technique. Perhaps you should contact standards to try and have it made into procedure.

Signed,
- SomeoneWhoPullsUpToLines
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I mean, some things shouldn’t have to be written out. This seems to be one of those.

Common sense
 
Let’s not discount that the 350 crew has probably taxied by many a CRJ at that exact spot without incident so many times before it never occurred to them that A they would have any clearance problem and B that the CRJ is so far back from the hold short line that it would cause an issue in the first place.

Disclaimer. Confirmation bias is real and a capt is responsible for his ship.
 
Wardogg said:
Let’s not discount that the 350 crew has probably taxied by many a CRJ at that exact spot without incident so many times before it never occurred to them that A they would have any clearance problem and B that the CRJ is so far back from the hold short line that it would cause an issue in the first place.

Disclaimer. Confirmation bias is real and a capt is responsible for his ship.
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One difference between taxing a widebody and a narrowbody is that you never, ever assume anything. It was a bit of a mind shift to make, but once you are there, you don't taxi the same way ever again.
 
At least they didn’t hit a building

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