No more Brasilias at SkyWest...

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sure you can. It is just like grading a paper in college. Who gets an A, who gets a B using the established rubric?

That's actually a great example of why you're wrong. The established rubric in a college course almost always contains subjective criteria, making the ultimate grade derived from qualitative metrics rather than quantifiable metrics. We've all gotten a grade that we felt unfair, but since the method of grading is highly subjective, it's largely at the discretion of the instructor and can't be refuted.

By the same token, when employee performance reviews are done, it largely rests on the subjective views of the person doing the analysis, usually the person's immediate supervisor. Your boss doesn't like your personality, even though you do a great job? Then your performance review may be worse than your co-worker, and you're getting passed up for the promotion or pay raise. Your boss is a racist and you're black? Guess you aren't getting that raise. Etc.

 

[cactusjuba]

That's actually a great example of why you're wrong. The established rubric in a college course almost always contains subjective criteria, making the ultimate grade derived from qualitative metrics rather than quantifiable metrics. We've all gotten a grade that we felt unfair, but since the method of grading is highly subjective, it's largely at the discretion of the instructor and can't be refuted.

By the same token, when employee performance reviews are done, it largely rests on the subjective views of the person doing the analysis, usually the person's immediate supervisor. Your boss doesn't like your personality, even though you do a great job? Then your performance review may be worse than your co-worker, and you're getting passed up for the promotion or pay raise. Your boss is a racist and you're black? Guess you aren't getting that raise. Etc.

Have better grades, accomplishments, experience? Get passed up BECAUSE your white/asian/male.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Have better grades, accomplishments, experience? Get passed up BECAUSE your white/asian/male.

That's also a possibility (although probably less likely). Just another example of how subjective criteria can lead to unfair outcomes and pissed off employees.

 

[Boyington]

A rubric defines how things are evaluated. It is a constant. You can define 2+2=4 as subject if you want to. There are always things that have to be established as true in any discussion. I define my general mathematics to be in base10, therefor I can prove 2+2=4. I can also disprove it, if you really want to go there.

There are some employees that are better than others. That fact has to be established.

Oh, and you never answered my question. If you hire a new employee that is better than the people that are senior to them, do you fire all of the senior people?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

There were guys who were reserve FOs at USAirways for 10 or more years... after they had been a line holding captain.

Somebody always has it worse. The numbers don't matter.

There's quite a big difference between being a reserve FO at regional and a reserve FO at a legacy.

When I left it took 13 years in IAH to get off reserve as a captain.

13 years.

Some of those guys upgraded after 2!

Yes, the FlyChicaga types at ExpressJet had it real good. 2 yr upgrade and be a CA at almost any base. Sure the industry stagnated and then there were 12 year reserve CAs at XJT, but guess what, at least they could still pull in 70-90k for the year. I left my regional after nearly half a decade and with nothing but SIC time to show for it. Thankfully I wasn't regional reserve FO for more than two months but I have heard the horror stories of some guys being at a regional as a FO on reserve for 4 years! And still going!

So yes, somebody always has it worse, but there is no anyone can compare a regional FO on reserve to a legacy FO on reserve.

 

[mrivc211]

The rumors actually came true this time. From the press release:

SkyWest, Inc. (NASDAQ: SKYW) today announced fleet
transitions and contract updates designed to improve SkyWest’s overall efficiency and long-term
profitability. Specifically, SkyWest announced that SkyWest Airlines, Inc., its wholly-owned
subsidiary (“SkyWest Airlines”), intends to transition to an all-jet fleet by removing all remaining
30-seat Embraer 120 Brasilia turboprop aircraft (the “EMB 120s”) from service by summer 2015.
The EMB 120 fleet retirement comes, in part, in response to increased costs and additional
challenges associated with new FAR117 flight and duty rules, implemented in January 2014.

From the memo to pilots, sounds like a gradual wind down with the last airplane to be gone by the end of April.

Some of my greatest memories of flying will always be as a young 23 year old kid sitting in the right seat of that airplane flying through all kinds of weather.

I remember the time we almost hit a UAV that wasn't on radar going through the coachella valley.

I remember my first flight as a Captain having the fleet manager in the jumpseat and flying to HDQ only to find wicked storms and a circling DME arc approach waiting for me to land on a runway built on a bluff.

I remember being given a late descending turn for an approach going into Medford only to hear the GPWS warnings going off, me giving a puzzled look at the Captain and him saying, "don't look at me stupid, pull up, lets get outta here".

Taking off out of Oxnard at o dark thirty with wicked Santa Ana winds blowing and landing at LAX east bound and the sun still hadn't risen.

The Modesto overnight with the Double Tree cookie waiting for us.

While on climb out having the EEC fail on us, then jumping up thinking we lost an engine. lol, that was funny to see our reaction.

The descent into PSP with "moderate" turbulence, landing, and seeing blue juice dripping from the bathroom ceiling.

Parking at the "box" at LAX, walking into the HUGE pilots lounge with all the leather chairs, and seeing our old chief pilot, Jon Tenpas greeting us with a smile.

so many more memories.......

 

[mrivc211]

Yep, usually MEL'd

It was rarely MEL'd at OO when I was on it.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It's a good thing we don't have to fly together. I think I'd end up beating you to death with the fire extinguisher by the end of a 4 day.

What PhilosopherPilot said was true. And what you just wrote just further proves his point.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

A rubric defines how things are evaluated. It is a constant. You can define 2+2=4 as subject if you want to. There are always things that have to be established as true in any discussion. I define my general mathematics to be in base10, therefor I can prove 2+2=4. I can also disprove it, if you really want to go there.

Negative. Let's use an example from my college English class's rubric for a persuasive essay:

"Thesis or Main Claim: Presents an engaging thesis, or main claim, about a chosen topic and indicates the direction that the essay will take."

Whether the thesis is "engaging" is a subjective matter. One instructor may consider a thesis to be quite engaging, while another instructor might consider the very same thesis to be rather dull. Perhaps a given instructor finds topics on history to be rather exciting, while he personally doesn't care for topics on current events. Two students submit their papers, one on a historical subject and one on a current event. Both are well crafted, but because the instructor doesn't care for the one subject but adores the other, he is likely to view them very differently. It may even be subconscious. He might even make a diligent effort to try to be fair. But because of his biases, it may be very difficult for him to do so.

Oh, and you never answered my question. If you hire a new employee that is better than the people that are senior to them, do you fire all of the senior people?

I didn't answer your question because you didn't define "better." How is this to be quantified? How do I objectively determine whether one property manager is "better" than another? If they both get the job done, then both are good.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

For @Autothrust Blue and @PhilosopherPilot here is the 'why'. To make it clear, I bid 83ish% in base and can be a very junior line holder if I want to be.

Fundamentally the system developed here in the United States is seniority based. Folks entering the industry (unless they have NO idea) know that it is seniority based and they are signing up for the fact that they may need to work days/lines/etc. they don't want to. It is what it is. No matter if you work for XYZ Airline, public service, or corporate America, there are benefits of seniority. Yes, they are magnified at airlines, but seniority does have it's privileges. As @ATN_Pilot said is it 'fair' for the guy who put his time in at a company to be expected to sit reserve/airport standby in base if they commute and can easily hold a line? It isn't.

If this rotating reserve bull-crap is proposed you are opening a pandora's box of possibilities of what else may be proposed from management about ways to get around the seniority system. Do folks go back and forth between seats? What about how vacation is bid/awarded? Pay? And so on and so forth. Why reinvent the system? We need to invest in the system (more on that later) rather than think we are smarter to reinvent it.

From an operational standpoint there is consistency with generally the same folks being assigned reserve schedules vs. line holders. Having guys/gals go back and forth constantly between reserve and line holders would reduce reserve availability overall.

It is also a very narrow minded misconception to think that if you rotate folks you are 'spreading the pain'. For example, I am purposely bidding reserve in November/December to be off Thanksgiving and Christmas even though I can hold a line. Someone junior to me is getting a line that may have wanted one but wasn't expecting to get one because they were below the line holder line here. If they are a commuter being a line holder vs. reserve is very beneficial to them. Furthermore, at my place, @Derg, and @Autothrust Blue father is at you have folks who bid aircraft based on a lifestyle. They mainly bid the wide-bodies, bid reserve purposely, and go months without flying (if they were line holders they would fly 9 days a month but fly less than that on reserve). As a matter of fact, reserve on our wide bodies go REALLY REALLY REALLY senior. Would it be 'fair' to 'spread the pain' and have them fly if they don't want to? Or would it be better to allow their seniority to hold reserve and not fly?

Those two concepts, the fact that there are senior line holders who will bid reserve in months like November and December AND the fact that there are 'life style' pilots who will bid reserve purposely are the driving forces that create good reserve language (as I said invest in the system). 'Spreading the pain' between everyone once every 12 months will actually put you at a negotiating disadvantage because folks will say, 'well why invest in the reserve rules if I only need to do it once a year for 30 days? I will just take my vacation weeks the reserve month I am assigned.'

Investing in good reserve rules that make it attractive for guys/gals like myself and life style pilots purposely bid reserve when they can be line holders is the key to moving the junior guys from reserve to line holders.

So that is the 'why'. There is nothing wrong with the seniority based system. We just need to make sure we invest in all seniority ranges.

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Says the guy blessed by the seniority system. Lets be honest, we probably both started at the regionals at about the same age. I am now 30, and spent my airline ages in my 20s all as a First Officer.

How long were you a Colgan FO? Back in those days upgrades at Colgan were extremely quick and you got stick it out as a Captain in your 20s enjoying good schedules and avoiding reserve. You land at Spirit and then your curent legacy airline in a very short order. In other words, your timing couldn't have been better given what happened with the 2008-2010 recession and 2007's Age 65. Despite those things, your luck, timing, and airline choices served you excellently to get to where you are.

Now compare that to others who haven't been so lucky. I'm a mid level lineholder FO at a LCC, and you know what? I'm all for a rotating bidding schedule in which everyone does reserve for 2 months of a year. Spread the pain out so then event those blessed with seniority know what it's like to be on the lower end of the totem pole. If this was the case, the union leaderships at many places wouldn't be all "protect-the-senior" driven.

 

[mrivc211]

When I left it took 13 years in IAH to get off reserve as a captain.

13 years.

Some of those guys upgraded after 2!

1.5, get it right

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Seniority should always carry benefits. Loyalty is rewarded. Stick with a company, you get more pay, better schedules, etc. You helped build that company, while the guy who just started, regardless of "merit," has so far contributed nothing.

You either meet the standard for continued employment or you don't. If you don't, you get fired. If you do, then seniority dictates the rest.

Why? If I was running the company, I would say the 10th year guy is costing me more money than the 1st year guy. Your plan falls apart because of the assumption that pilots do differentiating work when that clearly isn't the case. A 10th year FO at a legacy flies the same planes in the same manner as a first year newhire. Lets be honest, you don't help build anything. You are one employee number among thousands. If you didn't fly today, they'd find someone else to move the plane.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

1.5, get it right

Exactly. Pretty much everyone hired at a regional from 2002-2006 benefited vastly in their regional career at the direct expense of furloughed mainline pilots. In those days if you hadn't upgraded by year 3, something was wrong with you (except Eagle and Comair).

 

[cactusjuba]

That's also a possibility (although probably less likely). Just another example of how subjective criteria can lead to unfair outcomes and pissed off employees.

Why is that less likely? Reverse discrimination is politically correct in todays environment. Took an act of the Supreme Court to discourage it for college entrance in Michigan. Recent headlines have blasted Silicon Valley tech companies because the majority of their employees are white and asian, albeit that over 80% of computer science grads are white and asian, and the pre-tech boom population demographic of San Jose was/is very white and asian.

Getting hired at a Major is facilitated when you have WAI or OBAP lobbying for your bypass of more skilled/experienced peers. I agree with you though, less subjective and more objective criteria should be favored. But I still affirm that longevity isn't the only factor. As pilots it is only computed at your company, not as it relates to your skill, experience, and knowledge at large.

 

[Seggy]

Once again @Cherokee_Cruiser you are talking but no substance behind those words. You once again bring your bitterness of how the Colgan Pilots faired in the SLI (YOU could have always gone there in 2007!) to try to tie it to another ridiculous idea.

The seniority system is here to stay. Plan accordingly.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Why is that less likely?

I don't know that it is, but I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that it's as widespread as other problems, such as women being underpaid when compared to their male peers. Do you have any peer reviewed data on this? I'd find it interesting.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Once again @Cherokee_Cruiser you are talking

He is? There's a way to fix that, you know.

 

[Lee D]

You know what's kind of sad is that when I flew for the commuters (no one said "regional" back then because well, at the end of the day, you'd get your ass kicked for that), the Brasilia was the shizzle of the commuter world.

It was an industry of Metroliners, Beech 1900's (D's if you were lucky), Jetstreams, etc. Hell, my senior year of college, I hopped on a commuter to PHX from PRC which was operated with a Chieftain.

The Brasilia, you could stand up in and take a pee. Taking a pee, at the time, on a commuter flight was a luxury because not many aircraft had a flight attendant, many didn't have bathrooms and the idea of spending more than 90 minutes on anything "commuter" was unimaginable.

Naturally times change.

Now the commuters became "regionals" and gone, for the most part, are the Brasilias, the ATR's, the Saabs and most other aircraft that a lot of us cut our teeth on.

I feel very nostalgic seeing it going, largely because I still remember looking across the aisle on a Skywest Brasilia flying from SFO to VIS and my dad telling me how proud he was that I chose aviation as a career, even though there wasn't jack squat going on in in the early 1990's and realizing that if I was going to make it happen, I'm going to have to be a little more positive, run a little faster and make better connections than the next guy when I got out of college. Hell, @Autothrust Blue probably flew the plane where I had that epiphany.

So for me, even though I didn't fly the airplane, it holds a special place in my heart on a number of levels.

It's funny how today's piece of crap airplanes were once yesterday's rock stars; speaking from the standpoint of many passengers. I remember flying her in to VIS a few times way back when I was a new hire. Sometimes the plane was empty so we would go flaps 45 and see how tight our short field landing technique was. Empty Bro's can stop on a dime at sea level.

Regarding the Brasilia, I'll steal Bumblebee's words from a thread a few years ago, "She'll always be my first love." Something like that....

Yes Seggy it did have an autopilot and an APU, but you still had to put on your big boy pants to handle it and fly it.

I don't regret one second of the seven years I spent operating it. The Brasilia has brought me safely through severe icing, severe turbulence, 30 knot plus gusty crosswinds every summer, (thank you old St George airport and Cody,WY) and more Rocky Mountain snowstorms and thunderstorms than I care to remember. It also let me experience the beauty of the entire Pacific coast along with the Western United States.

Finally the pilot community was always relatively small and so you formed a closer bond with the men and women who flew it. Many of us have moved on, but still retain close ties with those we flew with on the Brasilia. When I'm an old geezer. . . .well, an older geezer than I am now, that is what I will remember best. Lots of great people and memories.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Anyone who thinks that he's entitled to a promotion before someone who has worked at a company for far longer than him isn't the kind of person I want working for me.

Why? What if the lower longevity guy is more qualified? Just because someone has been there longer doesn't automatically make them the best candidate for a promotion.

But the real point is that your mentality is based around the idea that you have bad or mediocre employees continuing to work for you. Sorry, but that's the real bad business. First, you failed in hiring a poor or mediocre employee to start with. That means that you need to reevaluate your hiring process. Second, you failed in continuing to allow that poor or mediocre employee to continue working for you after you failed in hiring them. Third, you failed in motivating the employee to work harder, probably because you have a poor work environment based around the idea that people should be stepping all over each other trying to beat each other to promotions or raises because it's a competitive environment in a zero-sum game.

Old school ideas around how to run a business and deal with employees need to die. We've seen time and again that when progressive ideas are tried, they succeed in droves. Take a look at the new concept of unlimited vacation time that several tech companies are now using. Traditional business scumbags like Jack Welch raised holy hell when this came about, claiming that employees can't be trusted, and that they'll abuse any leeway you give them. The actual result? The employees at these companies are using less vacation time.

Throw out what you've been told. Sticking to the old way of doing things is the real path to mediocrity.

Seniority breeds mediocrity. Not for every pilot, but the majority, yes. How many times do you hear a pilot wanting to fly less, less, less, and be paid more, more, more. In the rest of corporate America, what you work is what you get paid. You want to get paid? You go to work! For pilots, they are constantly fighting for soft rules that are pay me, pay me, for less and less work. That is the goal. "How much can I get the company to pay me more and more, while I try and fly as little as possible." And the more senior you get, the more likely this rings true.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Once again @Cherokee_Cruiser you are talking but no substance behind those words. You once again bring your bitterness of how the Colgan Pilots faired in the SLI (YOU could have always gone there in 2007!) to try to tie it to another ridiculous idea.

The seniority system is here to stay. Plan accordingly.

I know, fair enough, I own up to my work decisions in terms of places of employment. Yes the seniority system is here to stay but it is by no means perfect.