No more Brasilias at SkyWest...

We're still a relatively small company, so honestly, it hasn't come up yet. There aren't any supervisory roles for people to advance into yet. That may change next year, at which point the opportunity will be made available in longevity order. Of course, just like upgrading at an airline, training and evaluation are a part of advancement, so if you can't cut it when you're given the opportunity, then you're back to where you started.

In the "real world" at a "real company" that's a horrible idea. Longevity is <> to quality or merit. Your idea is a great recipe for maintaining mediocrity. By definition, your method promotes the minimum standard.

Most companies promote the best and brightest, as opposed to the most senior, for good reason.

If I have a programming company and I hire a very sharp programmer tomorrow, he may very well be better than the programmer I hired last year. The senior guy isn't a bad employee and shouldn't be fired, but the new guy is BETTER.
 
In the "real world" at a "real company" that's a horrible idea. Longevity is <> to quality or merit. Your idea is a great recipe for maintaining mediocrity. By definition, your method promotes the minimum standard.

Most companies promote the best and brightest, as opposed to the most senior, for good reason.

If I have a programming company and I hire a very sharp programmer tomorrow, he may very well be better than the programmer I hired last year. The senior guy isn't a bad employee and shouldn't be fired, but the new guy is BETTER.
What kind of metric in aviation would the pilots be measured in being better?
 
We're still a relatively small company, so honestly, it hasn't come up yet. There aren't any supervisory roles for people to advance into yet. That may change next year, at which point the opportunity will be made available in longevity order. Of course, just like upgrading at an airline, training and evaluation are a part of advancement, so if you can't cut it when you're given the opportunity, then you're back to where you started.

Promoting based on longevity only in a business where performance is easily quantifiable seems like a poor decision. Any sort of promising "rising star" you have is going to quickly become frustrated and find a better job when he gets passed over for a promotion solely because Mabel has worked here longer than he has.
 
There reaches a point in business that an employee stops being more valuable than they currently are. They are doing a job that any $30,000 employee could do, but are getting paid $40,000. Once that happens, a business owner needs to evaluate how much more they are willing to pay them to do the same job.

Without increased responsibility, or without the ability to make me more money, why would I consider giving them additional raises if I could easily replace them? I may have a personal relationship with the employee, and that is fine. I am paying for the companionship. I may think that keeping the person and paying additional is good for morale. Again, that is fine - the extra pay is in essence a marketing cost. In many industries, however, there is absolutely no need to keep paying people more money to do the same job. It is poor business.

The basic reason that most owners keep giving raises is that they become complacent and lazy. It is easier to just keep the same thing running. Those businesses usually stagnate. If you are not growing, you are dying.

In the aviation industry, the constant increase in pay is marketing. How do you get a FO to start working for $20,000? Easy. Tell them that if they stay long enough, they will make tons of money. Show them the top end pay scale at a major airline - somewhere that only a small percentage of employees will ever reach. It is like the shiny new cars that casino's put on the gaming floor to attract people to play their slot machines.
 
Last edited:
What kind of metric in aviation would the pilots be measured in being better?

If you read my previous post, I asked IF IT WERE POSSIBLE to determine merit, wouldn't that be better method? ATN refuses to accept that concept.

I'm not saying it is possible or that I think it can be done or should be done.
 
If you read my previous post, I asked IF IT WERE POSSIBLE to determine merit, wouldn't that be better method? ATN refuses to accept that concept.

I'm not saying it is possible or that I think it can be done or should be done.
I missed that post. Doesnt seem there is a better alternative to the seniority system.
 
Promoting based on longevity only in a business where performance is easily quantifiable seems like a poor decision. Any sort of promising "rising star" you have is going to quickly become frustrated and find a better job when he gets passed over for a promotion solely because Mabel has worked here longer than he has.

Anyone who thinks that he's entitled to a promotion before someone who has worked at a company for far longer than him isn't the kind of person I want working for me.

But the real point is that your mentality is based around the idea that you have bad or mediocre employees continuing to work for you. Sorry, but that's the real bad business. First, you failed in hiring a poor or mediocre employee to start with. That means that you need to reevaluate your hiring process. Second, you failed in continuing to allow that poor or mediocre employee to continue working for you after you failed in hiring them. Third, you failed in motivating the employee to work harder, probably because you have a poor work environment based around the idea that people should be stepping all over each other trying to beat each other to promotions or raises because it's a competitive environment in a zero-sum game.

Old school ideas around how to run a business and deal with employees need to die. We've seen time and again that when progressive ideas are tried, they succeed in droves. Take a look at the new concept of unlimited vacation time that several tech companies are now using. Traditional business scumbags like Jack Welch raised holy hell when this came about, claiming that employees can't be trusted, and that they'll abuse any leeway you give them. The actual result? The employees at these companies are using less vacation time.

Throw out what you've been told. Sticking to the old way of doing things is the real path to mediocrity.
 
The constant raise in airline pay is nothing more than a marketing tool to get new pilots. If you come and work here, you get crap pay to start, but get constant raises and in the long run, you make millions - just to fly a shiny jet. We will even give you a cool uniform with a hat - the ones that chick dig.
 
Anyone who thinks that he's entitled to a promotion before someone who has worked at a company for far longer than him isn't the kind of person I want working for me.
.

I want them working for me. Just because someone has been there longer does not make them better at the job, or more capable of the new job. That is insane, and piss poor business.
 
I want them working for me. Just because someone has been there longer does not make them better at the job, or more capable of the new job. That is insane, and piss poor business.

If you have someone working for you who isn't worthy of a promotion after they've been working for you for a while, then you are the failure in keeping that person around.
 
You said that not only would you keep them, you would promote them just because they have been with you longer.

Some people are great workers, but terrible managers. Others are great at managing, but terrible at marketing. Etc...

Failure to put the right people in the right positions, just because they may be newer to your company than someone that has been there longer but is not right for the position is irresponsible. It is wrong to put an employee in a position in which they will not succeed.

As a business owner with more than 1200 employees, my main responsibility is the success of my business so that my employees keep their jobs. I take that very seriously. If I screw something up, some of them get fired. That would be hard to live with. That is why I put the best people in the positions that best fit them, and ensure the success of the company.
 
Last edited:
Anyone who thinks that he's entitled to a promotion before someone who has worked at a company for far longer than him isn't the kind of person I want working for me.

But the real point is that your mentality is based around the idea that you have bad or mediocre employees continuing to work for you. Sorry, but that's the real bad business. First, you failed in hiring a poor or mediocre employee to start with. That means that you need to reevaluate your hiring process. Second, you failed in continuing to allow that poor or mediocre employee to continue working for you after you failed in hiring them. Third, you failed in motivating the employee to work harder, probably because you have a poor work environment based around the idea that people should be stepping all over each other trying to beat each other to promotions or raises because it's a competitive environment in a zero-sum game.

Old school ideas around how to run a business and deal with employees need to die. We've seen time and again that when progressive ideas are tried, they succeed in droves. Take a look at the new concept of unlimited vacation time that several tech companies are now using. Traditional business scumbags like Jack Welch raised holy hell when this came about, claiming that employees can't be trusted, and that they'll abuse any leeway you give them. The actual result? The employees at these companies are using less vacation time.

Throw out what you've been told. Sticking to the old way of doing things is the real path to mediocrity.

Maybe when I hired Bob I couldn't afford the best programmer, but Bob was decent. Now I'm a big ass company and I can afford the MIT programmer. Does Bob get promoted before the newer guy, just because he has been here longer? I hope not. I want the BEST person for the job, not necessarily the longest on property.

If you hire enough employees at your company, you'll eventually hire people of varying abilities. People are not equal. There are variations in ability. Even two good employees vary in ability. Bob and Joe are both good. But Joe is better. Joe gets the promotion.

If your sharpest guy gets passed for promotion by a less sharp person just due to longevity, you'll lose that sharper employee.
 
And again I ask, from what glorious business background do you make your pronouncements?

People who work for someone else telling business owners how to run their businesses is an endless source of entertainment.

A friend and I started and owned a software/database company after college. We sold it, and that gave me the freedom to go to flight school. (That's why I used the programmer example.)
 
You said that not only would you keep them, you would promote them just because they have been with you longer.

Wrong. I never said that I would keep mediocre or poor employees. You guys are the ones suggesting that you would keep them and simply not promote them. That's an absolutely atrocious business decision, but one that is frequently made by poor managers who want to keep costs low by keeping on poor employees who they don't have to pay more. If someone isn't doing a good job, then they need to be shown the door, not just held back in a lower level position.

Failure to put the right people in the right positions, just because they may be newer to your company than someone that has been there longer but is not right for the position is irresponsible. It is wrong to put an employee in a position in which they will not succeed.

No one is talking about putting a marketing employee in an IT manager position just because they have longevity. We're talking about logical promotions that fall within their area of expertise. If you have a marketing employee who has been with your company for 10 years, a senior marketing position opens up, and you don't feel comfortable giving that experienced employee the promotion, then you've got yourself a bad employee that you screwed up in hiring and keeping around.
 
Maybe when I hired Bob I couldn't afford the best programmer, but Bob was decent. Now I'm a big ass company and I can afford the MIT programmer. Does Bob get promoted before the newer guy, just because he has been here longer? I hope not. I want the BEST person for the job, not necessarily the longest on property.

Sounds like you need to get rid of Bob.
 
Back
Top