No more Brasilias at SkyWest...

[DE727UPS]

We had an F/E who tried to upgrade to the right seat multiple times. She was a nice lady who could fly the sim to standard but couldn't get through IOE. Tried both the 72 and the 75. Tons of extra training. The company let her stay as an F/E until the job went away, when she retired. Our contract spells out what happens when you fail training. You just need to qualify for the previous seat and you'll stay on the list. There is a contractual protocol to follow for training failures that theoretically could result in termination. I'm not sure I've ever heard of that but wouldn't be surprised if it happened once in a while.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

We have people fail training occasionally and get terminated. If you get enough flags, you get a review board. If that board decides to discontinue training it's over.

I've seen people get 3 review boards before discontinuing training though. It's not easy to get terminated.

 

[MikeD]

I don't buy it. Especially now that everyone is typed. Lousy first officers will make lousy captains someday, and since upgrade is essentially fait accompli given sufficient time, well, you can see where that line of logic is going. It bothers me.

We had up or out for a long time; we no longer do, but if you bust enough transitions or upgrades you get frozen on your current seat for the remainder of your time at the Company. The specific details of the policy escape me.

We had an F/E who tried to upgrade to the right seat multiple times. She was a nice lady who could fly the sim to standard but couldn't get through IOE. Tried both the 72 and the 75. Tons of extra training. The company let her stay as an F/E until the job went away, when she retired. Our contract spells out what happens when you fail training. You just need to qualify for the previous seat and you'll stay on the list. There is a contractual protocol to follow for training failures that theoretically could result in termination. I'm not sure I've ever heard of that but wouldn't be surprised if it happened once in a while.

We have people fail training occasionally and get terminated. If you get enough flags, you get a review board. If that board decides to discontinue training it's over.

I've seen people get 3 review boards before discontinuing training though. It's not easy to get terminated.

All interesting methods presented here. I was just curious on how different operations handled these situations. Interesting indeed. I would think that there's a certain amount of liability keeping someone around who couldn't progress after trying or failed at doing so. Choosing not to, to me, is different.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

All interesting methods presented here. I was just curious on how different operations handled these situations. Interesting indeed.

Our system of flags is interesting. A normal lesson is one flag. A training to proficiency lesson is 2, and any check event is 3 flags. 6 flags gets you a review board.

 

[HRDiva]

Small company. Eight employees.

Nice growth; it was 5 last year as I recall!

I'll give you an example of thinking outside the box.

We have a call center. They take calls, sell tickets, etc. One employee connects dots. Just two weeks ago she took a call from someone who wanted tickets and had questions about programs and events. They mentioned a recent gala they attended at the Michener. Our rep could have just booked the visit and would have done her job. But she thought about it, looked up the gala online. She also looked at their list of patrons and saw the name on the list. Then she thought that if the person had the interest and money to do that, perhaps there was an opportunity to engage further. She referred it to Development, telling them when this person was planning to visit. They met the person, privately toured and, at the end of the visit, the person wrote a check to become a $10,000 Circles level member as the beginning of a new relationship.

That is connecting the dots.

This rep has three people (out of 5 in the call center) senior to her, however.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Nice growth; it was 5 last year as I recall!

I'll give you an example of thinking outside the box.

We have a call center. They take calls, sell tickets, etc. One employee connects dots. Just two weeks ago she took a call from someone who wanted tickets and had questions about programs and events. They mentioned a recent gala they attended at the Michener. Our rep could have just booked the visit and would have done her job. But she thought about it, looked up the gala online. She also looked at their list of patrons and saw the name on the list. Then she thought that if the person had the interest and money to do that, perhaps there was an opportunity to engage further. She referred it to Development, telling them when this person was planning to visit. They met the person, privately toured and, at the end of the visit, the person wrote a check to become a $10,000 Circles level member as the beginning of a new relationship.

That is connecting the dots.

This rep has three people (out of 5 in the call center) senior to her, however.

AirTran (and Southwest) always recognized these people in ways other than promotions or salary increases (which are done by seniority, of course). I can't remember what the terminology was, but there was some award that was given to the overachievers who went "above and beyond." They got recognition in front of their peers, they got a fancy steak dinner at an awards banquet, they got free positive space tickets for their families, they got put in a raffle to win a car, etc. I think that's a far more appropriate way to recognize those who go "above and beyond."

The problem with giving such a person a pay raise or a promotion ahead of the other employees is that it breeds resentment. Resentment towards their new supervisor, resentment towards the supervisor who promoted her, resentment towards the company, etc. Then work ethic suffers and performance suffers. The other employees have a legitimate beef. "I did everything you told me to do, and you still passed me over for the promotion. That's not fair!" And they're right. It's not fair. If you expect people to "connect the dots," then make that clear to them as part of their job description. Otherwise, passing them over on the basis that they didn't do it is wrong.

 

[HRDiva]

True if that is your culture. In a pay for performance culture it differs.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

AirTran (and Southwest) always recognized these people in ways other than promotions or salary increases (which are done by seniority, of course). I can't remember what the terminology was, but there was some award that was given to the overachievers who went "above and beyond." They got recognition in front of their peers, they got a fancy steak dinner at an awards banquet, they got free positive space tickets for their families, they got put in a raffle to win a car, etc. I think that's a far more appropriate way to recognize those who go "above and beyond."

The problem with giving such a person a pay raise or a promotion ahead of the other employees is that it breeds resentment. Resentment towards their new supervisor, resentment towards the supervisor who promoted her, resentment towards the company, etc. Then work ethic suffers and performance suffers. The other employees have a legitimate beef. "I did everything you told me to do, and you still passed me over for the promotion. That's not fair!" And they're right. It's not fair. If you expect people to "connect the dots," then make that clear to them as part of their job description. Otherwise, passing them over on the basis that they didn't do it is wrong.

I'm curious as to how you would select management/supervisory pilots.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm curious as to how you would select management/supervisory pilots.

I would look at that completely differently than a normal promotion. Normal promotions for pilots go from FE (if it still exists) to FO to CA. Like I told someone earlier in the thread, someone in Marketing doesn't expect a promotion into a Sales management position. This is no different. I would definitely make the opportunity available to internal hires before going outside, though.