NKS TA released

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yeah, but what's the advantage if the trips that touch drop but you have to still ensure you stay above 75 hrs min. Which very often means you have to find something in the open time pot and add it your schedule. With line bidding rules like that, I'd take PBS any day of the week.
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Any LOT system I've worked under, even under the regionals, pay protected drops due to conflicts, so that's not a player.

Besides, its not just about you. A 10% productivity gain is huge for the company and that value needs to be recaptured in any gains to balance that increased productivity. If you're in the bottom 10% of a category, and you are in the verge of getting bumped to reserve or out of base, it's a major frickin' deal.

You can change other PWA parameters to make up for it, but if you don't, you're letting the company operate with 10% fewer pilots and that reverberates all up and down the list.
 
Richman said:
Any LOT system I've worked under, even under the regionals, pay protected drops due to conflicts, so that's not a player.

Besides, its not just about you. A 10% productivity gain is huge for the company and that value needs to be recaptured in any gains to balance that increased productivity. If you're in the bottom 10% of a category, and you are in the verge of getting bumped to reserve or out of base, it's a major frickin' deal.

You can change other PWA parameters to make up for it, but if you don't, you're letting the company operate with 10% fewer pilots and that reverberates all up and down the list.
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You're projecting that the only goal of a pilot group is to increase staffing needs, which may be true at your airline, but might not be true at others. This is why ALPA doesn't have a national contract, and instead negotiates individually with each property it represents.

In order to determine what each individual pilot group wants, negotiating committees survey their pilot groups to determine what's important. At SJI, maybe driving staffing up is important. At Alaska for a lot of years, scope wasn't important.

I know you know this, and I know the roles you've had in ALPA over the years. I'm mostly explaining this for the kids following along at home.
 
Richman said:
Actually, the productivity gains come almost all from known abscences. Vacation, training, Mil Leave, and biggest of all, the month to month transition (worth 8-9% alone).

With LOT bidding, these trips (conflicts) that drop fall into open flying and would need to be covered by reserves. The month to month transition is especially tough because you have to staff for all that flying to clustered over 7-8 days, and then not for the rest of the month.

Since PBS won't place a trip over a known conflict or abscence, all of that is eliminated. It is THE big deal about PBS.

The open time thing is also a big deal. They can dial it down to near nothing. PBS generally needs a little bit of open time to work correctly, otherwise the system can't really do its job right. That's why you need some iron clad rules about how the system operate.
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This is all true. Pre loading know absences alone is probably over 10%.

However, with 117 switching to a rolling calendar, guys can intentionally dump all their flying at the back end of a month and then bid reserve the next month and dump all their days at the beginning of the month. For us anyway, because reserve days don't have a credit attached to them during the line build process in PBS, the system has no idea you will be illegal for almost all of the reserve days due to the prior month's work schedule.
 
Richman said:
Any LOT system I've worked under, even under the regionals, pay protected drops due to conflicts, so that's not a player.

Besides, its not just about you. A 10% productivity gain is huge for the company and that value needs to be recaptured in any gains to balance that increased productivity. If you're in the bottom 10% of a category, and you are in the verge of getting bumped to reserve or out of base, it's a major frickin' deal.

You can change other PWA parameters to make up for it, but if you don't, you're letting the company operate with 10% fewer pilots and that reverberates all up and down the list.
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But not at Alaska so the major advantage of line bidding is basically shot to ****. What's the point of line bidding then? At Alaska, conflicts drop but you are still responsible for adding credit back to 75 hrs. And if you don't then the company will add a trip to your schedule to put you back at/above 75 hrs. I have heard of guys having a stretch of 8 days off and the company puts a day trip right in the middle because the pilot didn't add back up 75 after conflict drop.

I do feel like your experience with line bidding dropped stuff with full pay, and no need to add any trips back to bring your credit up. That's not the case here and utterly defeats any real advantage of line bidding. I've heard their staffing requirements are higher with their line bidding, but that's something I would dispute. I've heard rumors that once we switch to their line bidding system we would have to increase our staffing numbers. Today, all Airbus classes/upgrades have been cancelled til further notice because we are apparently overstaffed. Now if we switch to line bidding in the Fall, how can they possibly claim we are overstaffed with our PBS?

I'd be okay with Spirit-type line bidding. But at Alaska once you get a line that drops trips with conflict (vac, training, month transition), what's the advantage when there's no pay protection and I have to add back to 75 by choosing ONLY trips that are now left in open time after the line awards? May as well have PBS in the first place and choose trips that you actually want that don't touch your vacation/training/conflict. With this line system, all you know is the trips dropped after touching your conflict but you have no clue what may be available to add back to 75 hrs.

A true line bidding system switching to PBS saves the company 10% staffing (or whatever formula/number you said). But with this crappy system of guys having to add back above 75 hrs, it minimizes the staffing numbers switching to PBS. At least with PBS my conflict is left alone and I can choose trips I want that go around it, and then NOT have to worry about adding anything back to make a legal schedule.
 
If that's the way it works at Alaska, then they are a significant outlier.

So you have training or a bid vacation and it implodes your schedule through no fault of your own? That sounds pretty non-optimal, to be charitable.

You can make back the productivity gives from PBS in any number of ways. Better work rules, more vacation, better min days, different rigs, more credit for different events. The list is pretty long.

But to just give into PBS and not get anything back for it is not good considering the back end for the company.

Not negotiating rock solid rules the PBS will operate under, including veto power from the union, any pilot group will come to seriously regret. And I mean seriously.
 
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Richman said:
If that's the way it works at Alaska, then they are a significant outlier.

So you have training or a bid vacation and it implodes your schedule through no fault of your own? That sounds pretty non-optimal, to be charitable.

You can make back the productivity gives from PBS in any number of ways. Better work rules, more vacation, better min days, different rigs, more credit for different events. The list is pretty long.

But to just give into PBS and not get anything back for it is not good considering the back end for the company.

Not negotiating rock solid rules the PBS will operate under, including veto power from the union, any pilot group will come to seriously regret. And I mean seriously.
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I agree with you, and scheduling improvements have to be done first (via LOA) before they begin any PBS negotiations. No point giving them anything for 'free.'
 
Latest email from the union. I find these number very hard to believe. How can PBS and all the work rule concessions value at only $64 million? Maybe someone here has a more enlightened perspective?

1) Is the TA a "cost-neutral" contract?
The total net incremental cost of the contract for the 5 year period is approximately $856 million. There are over $920 million in contract gains in the forms of higher hourly pay rates, larger direct 401(k) contributions, increased per diem expenses, improved duty rigs, additional sick leave accrual, company paid LTD, and more life insurance coverage over the current CBA. These contract gains were offset through work rule adjustments that were valued at an estimated $64 million on a net basis.
 
This doesn't even make sense to me, the union is saying "hey we know this is in the contract and it stinks but your best bet is to call out fatigue to get around it." Not to mention they throw more money at you for staying in the airport, so now you have guys who might be legitimately fatigued but want the extra money so they work instead. This is bad.

There does not appear to be any limitation on how long Crew Scheduling can make a pilot stand-by at the airport before going to the crew hotel, or how often they can be made to sit in the airport, is this correct?
Yes, that is correct. A pilot can be required to remain at the airport pending a reschedule until there is no longer any useful time remaining in his FDP. If at any point the pilot feels that he is no longer fit to perform any further duty the pilot can call in fatigued and will immediately be released into rest. Pay associated with scheduled duty already completed would not be in jeopardy.
 
RA390 said:
Latest email from the union. I find these number very hard to believe. How can PBS and all the work rule concessions value at only $64 million? Maybe someone here has a more enlightened perspective?

1) Is the TA a "cost-neutral" contract?
The total net incremental cost of the contract for the 5 year period is approximately $856 million. There are over $920 million in contract gains in the forms of higher hourly pay rates, larger direct 401(k) contributions, increased per diem expenses, improved duty rigs, additional sick leave accrual, company paid LTD, and more life insurance coverage over the current CBA. These contract gains were offset through work rule adjustments that were valued at an estimated $64 million on a net basis.
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Keep in mind that contract costing is pretty much made up to tell a story. ALPA's E&FA department is probably one of the best in the world, but at the end of the day, the Union will have a value attached to things and the Company will have a value attached to things. During a "good" negotiation both parties will agree to agree on certain numbers and probably agree to disagree on others. Like most things in a bargaining environment there is some give and take.

In this case I'd guess the Association put a much bigger value on any work rule changes but that was the agreed to number at the end of the day, much like I'd guess the company probably put bigger costs values on some other things but settled for a smaller number, closer to ALPA's projection of a cost. Just how it works.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
This doesn't even make sense to me, the union is saying "hey we know this is in the contract and it stinks but your best bet is to call out fatigue to get around it." Not to mention they throw more money at you for staying in the airport, so now you have guys who might be legitimately fatigued but want the extra money so they work instead. This is bad.

There does not appear to be any limitation on how long Crew Scheduling can make a pilot stand-by at the airport before going to the crew hotel, or how often they can be made to sit in the airport, is this correct?
Yes, that is correct. A pilot can be required to remain at the airport pending a reschedule until there is no longer any useful time remaining in his FDP. If at any point the pilot feels that he is no longer fit to perform any further duty the pilot can call in fatigued and will immediately be released into rest. Pay associated with scheduled duty already completed would not be in jeopardy.
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Um. Really?
 
Richman said:
Any LOT system I've worked under, even under the regionals, pay protected drops due to conflicts, so that's not a player.

Besides, its not just about you. A 10% productivity gain is huge for the company and that value needs to be recaptured in any gains to balance that increased productivity. If you're in the bottom 10% of a category, and you are in the verge of getting bumped to reserve or out of base, it's a major frickin' deal.

You can change other PWA parameters to make up for it, but if you don't, you're letting the company operate with 10% fewer pilots and that reverberates all up and down the list.
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Huh like uhhhh, what 'xperience do you have with that? :)
 
bLizZuE said:
How does this work with part 117?
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Your duty period continues and counts towards your cumulative limits. Although I'd guess the first time Spirit leaves a pilot sitting around for 6 hours but doesn't use them, they will try to argue against that.
 
Cruise said:
Yes, yes it does...sort of anyway. Any time they extend your FDP it's an automatic 2 hours, whether they use you or not (just have to be available for the 2 hours). Then beyond it's a 2:1 ratio or whatever is greater.
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That's an easier pill to wallow...Still blows imho
 
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