My negative ATC experience...

[N99999]

This is my first post to jetcareers.com, and unfortunately, what motivated me to take the leap to sign up stems from this incident.

For background, I'm a low-time instrument-rated pilot. I have somewhere between 150 and 200 hours total.

I've made a couple minor mistakes, such as turning to my filed heading instead of maintaining my current (unassigned) heading while awaiting an ATC vector. And I corrected a controller once when I mentioned being inside a cloud (other traffic couldn't spot me), the controller said it wasn't a smart thing to say when VFR, to which I responded that I was IFR.

I feel good knowing there are extra eyes looking out for me and talking on the radios is now second-nature to me.

A few weeks ago, I took my first trip in an airplane. I rented a plane for the trip and had multiple failures on my way up. I lost the vaccuum pump, tachometer and I had to be gentle with the airplane in the climb to keep it cool up until about 6000MSL. This was a known-issue with the airplane, according to the flight school where I rented it -- I'd appreciate it if we could keep the thread off of the subject of whether or not I was stupid to have flown with this issue.

The plane kept me grounded at my destination for a few days while parts came in. I took it up the night after it was fixed and flew around for an hour or so and everything was fine.

On my return trip, I stopped at another airport and did a stop-and-go to get a third airport on the return flight. It was brutally hot that day 90+ degrees on the ground. Upon departing the stop-and-go airport, I had to level off at a miserable 3000 ft because of the heat generated when sitting and waiting for landing traffic before taking off again.

I stopped at KSAV for fuel and gave the plane a good hour or so to cool off. My thoughts were that if I got out quickly, I could climb to cooler air and avoid the issue I'd had on my way there.

The ground controllers were helpful as were departure after I was airborn, but I felt like the guy in the tower antagonized me pretty hard.

Here's what happened:

I get asked if I'm ok taking off from a runway intersection, to which I replied that I was. I also mentioned that I needed to get airborn because the engine gets hot on the ground. I was instructed to hold short for a landing G2, which I acknowledged and did. After the G2 landed, the controller spat out five sentences that I regarded at the time as being unintelligible. I heard "cleared" but wasn't sure of what-else was said -- I remember thinking the controller had stepped on his own words, so I requested that he repeat. He then cancels my clearance and vectors in two planes that weren't even visible: a Cirrus, which took a few minutes to make it in and another Gulfstream. I don't believe either were regularly scheduled flights. I ran up 0.3 on the Hobbs holding short.

What got me pissed was that several times, while I was roasting in that POS Cessna, he gets on the radio and calls my tail number, followed by "How do you hear?" which received an immediate response from me, "loud and clear, N-number" I ended up crossing the swamp in southern Georgia at 4000 ft to keep my plane cool, which I believe to be a direct result of spending an unnecessary amount of time on the ground. I took a different route on the way up, where there seemed to be beaches all along the shore; had I known there was a massive swamp to cross, I would have probably just spent the night and come back the next day.

My question is this: was I overreacting in thinking that the controller was intentionally antagonizing me, which I still believe to be the case? If that was the case, would I have any recourse for it in the future?

 

[primate]

You don't have to take an intersection departure, if you don't want to. If you need a moment, say "I need a moment or two".

If they rapid-fire it to you, just tell them you didn't copy. They'll repeat it more intelligibly. Repeat as required.

Was the airplane created because we had a National Airspace System, or the other way 'round ?

Don't let anyone hurry you, proceed with safety in mind. Ask for what you want, and persist until you get it.

- primate (livin' under the Bravo, bout to get more BRAVO)

 

[TripSix]

My first thought when reading this was; something was broken.

Take all the circumstances of the heat, the trip, the broken airplane aside and strip it down to this:

Takeoff clearance was garbled. You asked for a repeat and got a cancel.

You were asked numerous times "how do you hear?" You responded numerous times.

I would be willing to bet between that and you departing a switch was flipped or a knob was turned - and comms went back to normal.

If you issue a takeoff clearance and don't get a response, you cancel it. It's a CYA. Then you start flipping to standby and twisting knobs labeled VOL. And then you start asking "how do you hear?"

It's happened more times than I can count. I can hear you, but you can't hear me. But someone else can hear you, or me. Etc, etc.

 

[N99999]

My first thought when reading this was; something was broken.

Take all the circumstances of the heat, the trip, the broken airplane aside and strip it down to this:

Takeoff clearance was garbled. You asked for a repeat and got a cancel.

You were asked numerous times "how do you hear?" You responded numerous times.

I would be willing to bet between that and you departing a switch was flipped or a knob was turned - and comms went back to normal.

If you issue a takeoff clearance and don't get a response, you cancel it. It's a CYA. Then you start flipping to standby and twisting knobs labeled VOL. And then you start asking "how do you hear?"

It's happened more times than I can count. I can hear you, but you can't hear me. But someone else can hear you, or me. Etc, etc.

Gotcha. It could've been coincidental that the cancellation came after my request for the repeat, when he didn't hear anything, the same with the "How do you hear?" -- perhaps he was monitoring the wrong frequency, or I had gotten the wrong one from ground.

 

[Douglas]

Don't take any tone as being personal and just let this one roll off your back.
It sounds like a crappy plane. If he kept saying "how do you hear?" Your delayed take-off probably wasn't because of his garbled transmission.

 

[The Gardener]

When asked "how do you hear" I always reply, "Loud and clear, have I missed any calls?"

Usually the answer is "yes".

Get hold of a better plane and forget about this incident. What did the maintenance department say about your squawks? Was the situation addressed?

 

[N99999]

When asked "how do you hear" I always reply, "Loud and clear, have I missed any calls?"

Usually the answer is "yes".

Get hold of a better plane and forget about this incident. What did the maintenance department say about your squawks? Was the situation addressed?

Yes. I've started forking out a higher rate for a better plane. Apparently the plane I was flying had over 12,000 (!!!) hours on it.

 

[BajtheJino]

Yes. I've started forking out a higher rate for a better plane. Apparently the plane I was flying had over 12,000 (!!!) hours on it.

The plane I fly has about 30,000.

When you say the plane runs hot you mean it gets into the red part of the arc? Or just high on the green side? If I was flying a plane that over heated on the ground I don't think I'd be taking off. Thats all I'm gonna say about that.

 

[mattyt98]

I also would not worry about this at all. It was probably a combination of a crappy radio on either your plane or even the tower, Yes the tower radios wear out every now and then as well. That being said I know what you mean about being upset having to wait but unfortunately sometimes in aviation you just have to hold. I know you say you are comfortable on the radio but sometimes just a short pause will cause the controllers to pass you up, especially in places like Ksav where they talk to Gulfstreams all day. They expect you to be listening and paying close attention.
That being said I wouldnt worry about it any longer and just move on and keep flying. Oh and find another airplane!!!!! If your having an aircraft over heat on the ground at idle there is indeed a major problem. DO NOT FLY THAT PLANE!!!!

 

[ATC RET 2003]

My question is this: was I overreacting in thinking that the controller was intentionally antagonizing me, which I still believe to be the case? If that was the case, would I have any recourse for it in the future?

If you believe a controller was intentionally antagonizing you, call the facility and talk to a supervisor or manager about it.

 

[rd757]

If you believe a controller was intentionally antagonizing you, call the facility and talk to a supervisor or manager about it.

"The Number" goes both ways...

 

[msmspilot]

Gotcha. It could've been coincidental that the cancellation came after my request for the repeat, when he didn't hear anything, the same with the "How do you hear?" -- perhaps he was monitoring the wrong frequency, or I had gotten the wrong one from ground.

I think your primary question has been answered. As far my comment, when asking a controller to repeat something, the correct phrase is "say again."

 

[jonnydwolf]

When you say the plane runs hot you mean it gets into the red part of the arc? Or just high on the green side? If I was flying a plane that over heated on the ground I don't think I'd be taking off. Thats all I'm gonna say about that.

And flying over a swamp at 4,000 feet in south Georgia in a bad plane? Forget about negative ATC experience, ever seen Deliverance?

 

[gomntwins]

Sometime's it's not even a bad radio that does it. I've learned that there are often dead spots at airports or the antenna placement on your aircraft will not like certain locations. On a lot of aircraft one antenna is on the top of the plane, the other is underneath... if you have a hard time hearing on the ground swap radio's and try or else turn the squelch on and you'll hear better. Every airport combined with every different type of airplane has it's own tricks to maintaining good radio communications.

 

[N99999]

The plane I fly has about 30,000.

When you say the plane runs hot you mean it gets into the red part of the arc? Or just high on the green side? If I was flying a plane that over heated on the ground I don't think I'd be taking off. Thats all I'm gonna say about that.

I kept it in the green. There was no "red" area, just a red line at 245. I kept it under that and in the green. The FBO performed its 100 hour inspection when I got it back and they said the engine was fine. An A&P friend of mine says this can happen when some part doesn't properly route oil through the oil cooler.

 

[RobertB]

Gotcha. It could've been coincidental that the cancellation came after my request for the repeat, when he didn't hear anything, the same with the "How do you hear?" -- perhaps he was monitoring the wrong frequency, or I had gotten the wrong one from ground.

That or he was cancelling your takeoff clearance to cover his own ass if you inadvertently taxied onto the runway.

Why would local control be monitoring the wrong frequency? Local at SAV operates on 119.1 so they wouldn't be on the wrong frequency. Shouldn't you have the necessary frequencies when you fly into or out of an airport or at least have a general idea of which ones to expect?

 

[RobertB]

I also would not worry about this at all. It was probably a combination of a crappy radio on either your plane or even the tower, Yes the tower radios wear out every now and then as well. That being said I know what you mean about being upset having to wait but unfortunately sometimes in aviation you just have to hold. I know you say you are comfortable on the radio but sometimes just a short pause will cause the controllers to pass you up, especially in places like Ksav where they talk to Gulfstreams all day. They expect you to be listening and paying close attention.
That being said I wouldnt worry about it any longer and just move on and keep flying. Oh and find another airplane!!!!! If your having an aircraft over heat on the ground at idle there is indeed a major problem. DO NOT FLY THAT PLANE!!!!

Exactly... Add intersecting runways with the intersection 6,000 down both runways so it takes forever to get touch and go's in and depart small, slow guys. Plus add in air carriers, fighters, gulfstreams, A22's going 40 knots on final, etc. and you can see why some people have little patience. If we don't hear a response from you when you are issued a takeoff clearance, but everyone else can communicate with us, we by pass you because it is probably your equipment that is malfunctioning and we might not have time to deal with you at that moment or don't want to risk you turning and departing the wrong way from an intersection (happens all the time) or something else that could happen. We will just wait until we can deal with you and get you out safely.

 

[Vector4Food]

No ATC facility is going to risk separation or impede other traffic because your aircraft is sub-standard, you don't have to go flying.

 

[fholbert]

No ATC facility is going to risk separation or impede other traffic because your aircraft is sub-standard, you don't have to go flying.

That is the correct answer.

I'd like to hear the tape because I'll bet there were some missed calls too.

 

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Is it sad that upon reading the thread title and the first line of the thread I just skimmed the rest of the original post looking for "Las Vegas Approach"?