DL31082
Well-Known Member
The 50me is an insurance thing, but it is just total ME time. I have 140 in a seminole, so I easily have the 50ME. I would need 5 in type to instruct in it. Merry Christmas everyone!!!!
multi time?
- Thread starter mshunter
- Start date
The 50me is an insurance thing, but it is just total ME time. I have 140 in a seminole, so I easily have the 50ME. I would need 5 in type to instruct in it. Merry Christmas everyone!!!!
Douglas
Old School KSUX
?
What i am talking about is an insurance thing. I must not have said it very succinctly.
Telling people that 50 hours of twin time is required before insurance will cover you is blatantly wrong information. I can assure you that I was giving instruction in a twin before I had 50 hours of twin time in my log book.
Examples: *note that I have very limited experience with insurance, I just teach people how to fly.
For me to instruct in our twin, our insurance company only required our flight instructors to have the minimum time allowed by the FAA.
For me to walk into the other flight school no the field and fly their same make/model twin, I would then need the standard 50 hours twin time x amount make/model.
It is a double standard, again though, I have very limited experience with insurance, but this is the way it has been at four different flight schools I know personally, which leads me to think it is the rule and not the exception.
I would expand more but my family is waiting in the car to go to midnight mass. gotta run
Merry Christmas
DL31082
Well-Known Member
Hey, I'm just telling you what was told to me by the owner of my flight school. The way he explained it to me is this.
For a renter to rent the plane they need one of two things- 1. 25hrs of instruction in our plane by one of our instructors, if their total ME time is less then 50ME. 2. If it is over 50ME they just have to be checkout and proficient in the airplane.
To instruct it was the same kind of thing, but of course you have to have the 5 in type. I'm not saying that this is the way it is at every flight school, but it is the way it is at my flight school.
For a renter to rent the plane they need one of two things- 1. 25hrs of instruction in our plane by one of our instructors, if their total ME time is less then 50ME. 2. If it is over 50ME they just have to be checkout and proficient in the airplane.
To instruct it was the same kind of thing, but of course you have to have the 5 in type. I'm not saying that this is the way it is at every flight school, but it is the way it is at my flight school.
Maddog1974
Well-Known Member
You guys are lucky to have the option to fly a multi. a local school wants MEI's to have 700 TT before they will even let you teach in a multi
On the other hand the place I work for now does not have ANY multi students. I could easily get checked out...the insurance says I have to have 5 dual rcvd and 10 hours solo and then I can teach. Please don't comment on that...it is in another thread and I got the answer I needed.
Someone else said it very well in the beginning...Each school type (FBO/ATP) has benefits, find them and be happy with your decision:
On the other hand the place I work for now does not have ANY multi students. I could easily get checked out...the insurance says I have to have 5 dual rcvd and 10 hours solo and then I can teach. Please don't comment on that...it is in another thread and I got the answer I needed.
Someone else said it very well in the beginning...Each school type (FBO/ATP) has benefits, find them and be happy with your decision:
- Go to college and learn to fly at local FBO while there!
- Take ATP the summer before college and teach the next four years
- And make plenty of connections/ network the heck out of school
- Go to ATP, finish in 3 months, start working to TRY and earn a living, pay your dues, build time...ETC
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I'd vote for #1 every time, its not that tough to do, much cheaper, and you aren't saddled with $50k of ATPs debt, followed by another $20k to $50k of college debt. Hell, I took a year off from school, my student loans for the local FBO didn't kick in, and now I can afford to pay for UAA out of pocket rather than having to go into more debt.
toss up between #1 and #2. college, definatly! beeing able to instruct and do college at the same time is a definate plus.
FBO route, while it can be cheaper, as a whole, (yes i siad it), when it comes to paying for the hours, ATP is cheaper, IF YOU ELECT TO PAY FOR THEM. and some of us do, because it is a quicker way in, for most of us.
option#1, great idea if you can afford to either not work, or work less than 10 hours a week.
option#2, like you said, great way to have a ton of hours, but you still need to start paying back those loans, while instructing, AND still manage to have enough brain power left to learn @ school.
option#3, includes no college education. and although in my opnion, a degree in plant bio (which would suffice) will do you no good in aviation, they still want to see that piece of paper with the school's name and your name on it.
in my opnion, both 1 and 2 are good, 3 is horrible.
FBO route, while it can be cheaper, as a whole, (yes i siad it), when it comes to paying for the hours, ATP is cheaper, IF YOU ELECT TO PAY FOR THEM. and some of us do, because it is a quicker way in, for most of us.
option#1, great idea if you can afford to either not work, or work less than 10 hours a week.
option#2, like you said, great way to have a ton of hours, but you still need to start paying back those loans, while instructing, AND still manage to have enough brain power left to learn @ school.
option#3, includes no college education. and although in my opnion, a degree in plant bio (which would suffice) will do you no good in aviation, they still want to see that piece of paper with the school's name and your name on it.
in my opnion, both 1 and 2 are good, 3 is horrible.
Maddog1974
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that if you are enrolled in school most lending institutions might suspend the payments if you are attending college. BUT, that means that your loan is accrueing interest throughout the four years. That would suck and i agree it might suck having to create a training course outline and attend college at the same time.
Ok so maybe it is a moot point...I'll shut my mouth now!
DL31082
Well-Known Member
Yeah that accrued interest thing is a pain!!! People just need to pick which school works best for them. It was in my best interest to get my ratings done fast. If I had several years to do it I would have gone the FBO route because it would have been cheaper. For everyone it is a little bit different.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
What does this mean?
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I don't know. The only places ATP is cheaper than is like DCA or Flight Safety.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
If you chose the FBO route do a little research as well. Try to avoid paying in advance, if they ask you to refuse outright unless the school has a long history of operation, and even then be cautious. You don't want to be that kid that just got a Key Bank loan that went directly to the school and then the school went out of business and chained up the doors. Key Bank would still expect you to pay it back. This is fairly unlikely but it has happened before (and recently too.) I don't believe ATP has ever stiffed anyone, except if you consider their pro-rate is kind of stiffing since if you quit or are kicked out post-IFR stage you won't really receive much back.
ATP multi time is less expensive than FBO multi time. FBO route, most opt for the Commercial single, then add the Multi. so you end up with less multi. so, yes the FBO route costs less, but you end up with less multi hours. ATP costs more, but you end up with more multi hours. if you had to do the math, figure the instructor fee's as well, and you end up paying about $100 an hour for the 172, and about $170 for the PA44.
does that clear it up?
Douglas
Old School KSUX
It may be that ATP is less expensive than some FBOs/hour but when I was there, they were charging $300/hour. At my School you can rent an Aztec at $240/Instructor $35.
That is my own personal experience.
We are not operating with huge margins on our twin here, it is bare bones. So what is ATP doing that allows them to charge 170/hour on a seminole. With gas prices, that is impressive, and if that is true, a good deal is a good deal if you go the pure twin route.
Go along with me here and correct me if I am wrong.
The zero-hero program says you log 285 hours. (I don't know if this is the course you used, or if this is an updated one. I pulled this off of the website.
"285 Hours Logged Time
165 Hours Multi-Engine Time
65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
& Flight Checks
50 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
120 Hours Single-Engine Time
95 Hours Single-Engine Solo, Instruction
& Flight Checks
25 Hours Single-Engine Cross-Country"
So the times I have underlined are cross country times. Is this x-c time dual or is it Safety pilot or is it solo time? I don't know, but I think I maybe have found why there is such a disparity in ATP's, as you say, 170/hour seminole career program and $380/hour 10 hour commercial add-on. (4 DAYS $3,795 DPE Fee not included).
What I am getting at is, if ATP has these cross country times or part of these cross counties as safety pilot times and not solo times (dual times has it's own line), then my question is who is paying for this flight with the safety pilot? There are two ways you can look at it since it is not a per hour charge but a flat rate. Either both are paying for the time, so ATP is making double the money with both of you in the cockpit or Only one pilot is paying and the other is just along for the ride logging time. BUT, since that time is going into your log book it is going towards the 285 hour promise to you when you signed up. So either way you look at it you will get the same result.
Now if you take the route that says only one person is paying for it, then your need to subtract those hours that you say you are "paying" for on an hourly bases, which in turn drive the cost of the aeroplane up.
This could be why there is not a per/hour break down anywhere on their site. Now this is pure conjecture, but my guess is it helps with people not getting on the ground after an hour of being S.P. and thinking 'wait, I just was charged $170 for being a S.P'.
The truth is, is that all us flight schools run on small margins and for the most part if you are going to be doing your time in a twin, it will reflect that price, and the same goes for a single.
night
That is my own personal experience.
We are not operating with huge margins on our twin here, it is bare bones. So what is ATP doing that allows them to charge 170/hour on a seminole. With gas prices, that is impressive, and if that is true, a good deal is a good deal if you go the pure twin route.
Go along with me here and correct me if I am wrong.
The zero-hero program says you log 285 hours. (I don't know if this is the course you used, or if this is an updated one. I pulled this off of the website.
"285 Hours Logged Time
165 Hours Multi-Engine Time
65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
& Flight Checks
50 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
120 Hours Single-Engine Time
95 Hours Single-Engine Solo, Instruction
& Flight Checks
25 Hours Single-Engine Cross-Country"
So the times I have underlined are cross country times. Is this x-c time dual or is it Safety pilot or is it solo time? I don't know, but I think I maybe have found why there is such a disparity in ATP's, as you say, 170/hour seminole career program and $380/hour 10 hour commercial add-on. (4 DAYS $3,795 DPE Fee not included).
What I am getting at is, if ATP has these cross country times or part of these cross counties as safety pilot times and not solo times (dual times has it's own line), then my question is who is paying for this flight with the safety pilot? There are two ways you can look at it since it is not a per hour charge but a flat rate. Either both are paying for the time, so ATP is making double the money with both of you in the cockpit or Only one pilot is paying and the other is just along for the ride logging time. BUT, since that time is going into your log book it is going towards the 285 hour promise to you when you signed up. So either way you look at it you will get the same result.
Now if you take the route that says only one person is paying for it, then your need to subtract those hours that you say you are "paying" for on an hourly bases, which in turn drive the cost of the aeroplane up.
This could be why there is not a per/hour break down anywhere on their site. Now this is pure conjecture, but my guess is it helps with people not getting on the ground after an hour of being S.P. and thinking 'wait, I just was charged $170 for being a S.P'.
The truth is, is that all us flight schools run on small margins and for the most part if you are going to be doing your time in a twin, it will reflect that price, and the same goes for a single.
night
o.k., this is the last time i am going to say this, if you dont need any additional time through ATP, and you figure the total cost of the program, the private single engine portion w/time building, equals to be about $100 an hour for the 172's. and if you figure the time for the seminole for the rest fo the program, its about $170 an hour for a seminole. no additional time, at the fixed cost, screw the saftey pilot time thing, and everything else that was mentioned. i am not trying to pick everything appart that ATP does that some people dont agree with, i am just stating that if you work the numbers this is what it comes out to be. at them end of the day, 95% of employers don't car how you got the time, they just care that you have it. if you cant pass a 135 checkride, than it's all useless, as well if you pass the 135 checkride, it was all worth it.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
as far as how they do it, i dont know. mabey it's paying there guys 2k a month, charging them $300 a month if they need to share a room (which should be worth about $150). there seminoles and 172 are all owned, they double dip on x-countries (PM & PF), they have contracts with all the companies they buy fuel from on regular stops (only certian airports are approved to fly to unless an emergency exists). they dont pay there mechanics very well, they don't pay there cheif pilots/cheif flight instructors very well. they pro-rate the refund if you leave-get the boot. you want me to keep going? i could do this for about another 15 sentences.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Take it easy, your head will start to hurt if you keep banging it like that.
I didn't bring this thread up about simple math, you did and now you don't want to break it down? You didn't bring up that you would be paying while being a safety pilot, I had to figure that out. You wrote a long reply that didn't address anything I said, so I invite you to not say "something again", but to address my legitimate questions.
$170/hour for a seminole and instructor is on the verge of impossible, and I don't believe it cost $170/hour for their seminole, so I have looked for ways that will allow such a low price stated by you, and I asked for your opinion on the possibility I found.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
I am pretty sure it would be illegal to refund at a different rate than what is being charged.
pro rata