MikeD and Lawman

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Is this save as good as it looks?

https://www.reddit.com/r/next•inglevel/s/m3Lf5hioQ8

Edit: The link is censored but replace the censor dot after “next” with the f word in the url
 
Last edited:
Edit! I found a different video entirely. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingas•/s/Q97fAWX1fn

So what did he do right/wrong. He is executing an approach to a pinnacle (point-top of a vertical surface) and his profile doesn’t appear to be too steep so that’s good. The aircraft isn’t going to have gobs of available power but his approach isn’t so steep to need gobs to arrest it. His target point appears to be taking him to the point of contact which is good, though I’d shoot just above point of contact so you can commit with a deceleration or just continue past the ridge and go around without needing to climb out. Flying to the point through the whole profile means his only escape would include a turn. You could do that year, but it’s still more complicated a technique and I’m guessing he doesn’t have a lot of experience to back that up.

Where he gets it totally wrong is trying to be sexy/complicated in the maneuver sequence. Mountain flying you do things like a cadence of events. Align approach- set Decent-power to arrest—enter hover-turn-hover position-turn-hover-etc. Trying to combine things means more power needed because the tail rotor. He starts to execute a pedal turn prior to touchdown. So at the same time he’s committed to his approach he is using whatever remaining power he had to stop that decent, the pedal turn takes power he no longer has available. Plus without seeing the wind it looks like he gets into a tail rotor effectiveness region which to arrest means he needs even more power he doesn’t have.

His “save” is literally just apply max power, controls to level wings, pray…. He did the right thing late and got lucky. Now return to base for refuel and new pants/shoes/seat cushions.



To the original video yeah that guy stayed with it and saved it through force of skill alone. Looks like he had a full tail rotor failure from low forward speed. At that point you’re spiraling out of the sky, all you can do is apply power and try to cushion the landing/impact, maybe get a touch of nose down to try and gain airspeed, null the spin with the vertical tail. Skid Helo so anything over ~10 Gs, it will likely be near to fatal. Looks like he pulled his recovery just a little early and got back into rotation as airspeed decayed, arrested to high to simply set it down, lowered power/chopped throttle, caught it and kept it level at the bottom to make a save. Broke the helicopter but touched down where the impact is survivable. Very good job.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
I will never understand how these contraptions work. MikeD has explained LTE several times, it still sounds like sorcery. I'm shocked at the amount of videos I see of a helicopter being seemingly normal, and the next thing you know it's spinning in circles towards earth.
 
Me being offered a helo ride
174ADC0F-DF4C-4D1A-9032-1789353F30AD.gif
 
Pinnacle landings require a recon of the area for suitability, and constant evaluation during the entire evolution. Assuming recon conditions are good for making an approach; then one of the first things that has to be determined is where any winds are coming from for an approach into the wind, and having an appropriate approach angle, preferably a little steep, but not too much, to keep you above the wind demarcation line. This is the line that delineates where wind on the lee side of a pinnacle, where you are approaching from, ceases to be a downdraft. If below this demarcation line, ie- too shallow of an approach, there‘s risk of the downsloping lee-side winds forcing you down into terrain, possibly beyond the power available of the helicopter at that time, to be able to escape from.

Second, is power management. This comes in the form of both energy state, and correspondingly, descent rate. You want to have a slow forward speed, in order to keep the descent VSI to a low rate and manageable. You do this by starting the approach descent at a slow forward speed, and by loading up the rotor system; that is, descending with some power applied in order to keep the descent rate slow, while having some forward speed, but not too much, so that you don’t end up descending with power inside your own dirty downwash. What this does is allows you to make a nice, controlled, descent arrestment at the bottom end with just a small power application with the collective, in order to stop the descent and establish a hover in ground effect prior to touching down. What you want to avoid is a low power descent with an unloaded rotor system, and a corresponding high descent rate, that you then have to arrest at the bottom with a significant power pull. As there will be no guarantee that your power pull at the moment you do it, will arrest the descent vector and rate that you have allowed to occur. And its very possible to impact the ground by attempting that. Especially in hot temp or higher altitude conditions, or both.
 
Pinnacle landings require a recon of the area for suitability, and constant evaluation during the entire evolution. Assuming recon conditions are good for making an approach; then one of the first things that has to be determined is where any winds are coming from for an approach into the wind, and having an appropriate approach angle, preferably a little steep, but not too much, to keep you above the wind demarcation line. This is the line that delineates where wind on the lee side of a pinnacle, where you are approaching from, ceases to be a downdraft. If below this demarcation line, ie- too shallow of an approach, there‘s risk of the downsloping lee-side winds forcing you down into terrain, possibly beyond the power available of the helicopter at that time, to be able to escape from.

Second, is power management. This comes in the form of both energy state, and correspondingly, descent rate. You want to have a slow forward speed, in order to keep the descent VSI to a low rate and manageable. You do this by starting the approach descent at a slow forward speed, and by loading up the rotor system; that is, descending with some power applied in order to keep the descent rate slow, while having some forward speed, but not too much, so that you don’t end up descending with power inside your own dirty downwash. What this does is allows you to make a nice, controlled, descent arrestment at the bottom end with just a small power application with the collective, in order to stop the descent and establish a hover in ground effect prior to touching down. What you want to avoid is a low power descent with an unloaded rotor system, and a corresponding high descent rate, that you then have to arrest at the bottom with a significant power pull. As there will be no guarantee that your power pull at the moment you do it, will arrest the descent vector and rate that you have allowed to occur. And its very possible to impact the ground by attempting that. Especially in hot temp or higher altitude conditions, or both.

I don’t think you watched the same video lol
 
original video yeah that guy stayed with it and saved it through force of skill alone. Looks like he had a full tail rotor failure from low forward speed
It seems that he entered a perfect auto, probably from well into the shaded area but still managed to get enough forward speed for a comfortable running landing.

But then what happened at :07? Did he accidentally add power?
 
It seems that he entered a perfect auto, probably from well into the shaded area but still managed to get enough forward speed for a comfortable running landing.

But then what happened at :07? Did he accidentally add power?

I think he executed his cushion to land without chopping the throttle.

Primacy from doing the EP which he executed correctly, except an auto and an auto with no tail are different maneuvers in some very serious ways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I don’t think you watched the same video lol

Was just diffusing pinnacle landings since the subject was brought up. The video with the spinning helo was the only one i was able to see. Interesting technique there, and a lucky somewhat recovery.
 
That’s what it looked like. As fast as the torque factor seemed to resume the second the descent appeared to arrest.

I’d imagine he has a twist throttle/collective grip, but I can imagine in the moment having such a death grip on the controls just to counter the G forces that it would be hard to roll it off.

If he had a separate power quadrant like most twins…. hope the opposite crew member can get it. My hand is not leaving the collective if I’m on the controls in that situation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I’d imagine he has a twist throttle/collective grip, but I can imagine in the moment having such a death grip on the controls just to counter the G forces that it would be hard to roll it off.

If he had a separate power quadrant like most twins…. hope the opposite crew member can get it. My hand is not leaving the collective if I’m on the controls in that situation.

Agreed. While managing the collective in that tense situation, rolling the throttle off can easily be missed. The only suck part about a separate throttle quadrant, is that in a spin, it may be difficult for the non flying pilot to get to. Or in the case of single pilot helos with the same thing such as an older Astar, same same.
 
There was a time when I worked on helicopters, almost exclusively AS-350 and 355s. I thought the A-Star was probably the best thing going (except for the Lycoming powered versions, I was advised by smart people to give them a wide berth), the Twin-Stars I worked on always seemed like a bunch of monkey motion with no real benefit. All of them were Allison 250 powered, I knew that the engines made more rated HP than 250 but I always looked at them with a jaundiced eye. With the extra weight of two engines and a combining gearbox those helicopters might as well have been engine out with one still burning fuel at full power if one failed. I guess it must've checked a box somewhere on an actuaries table about multi-engine. The single engine version could out perform it in every situation. I was also unsure about the throttles on the ceiling, it did make my life easier but helicopters are a horrible way to fly through the air and the type of maniac that's mastered the art of somehow keeping those contraptions airborne needs all of the controls at their fingertips. I should also say I love flying in helicopters, there's nothing better than the moment when it stops being a vibrating rattletrap on the ground and rises up into the soft pillow that is a hover.
 
There was a time when I worked on helicopters, almost exclusively AS-350 and 355s. I thought the A-Star was probably the best thing going (except for the Lycoming powered versions, I was advised by smart people to give them a wide berth), the Twin-Stars I worked on always seemed like a bunch of monkey motion with no real benefit. All of them were Allison 250 powered, I knew that the engines made more rated HP than 250 but I always looked at them with a jaundiced eye. With the extra weight of two engines and a combining gearbox those helicopters might as well have been engine out with one still burning fuel at full power if one failed. I guess it must've checked a box somewhere on an actuaries table about multi-engine. The single engine version could out perform it in every situation. I was also unsure about the throttles on the ceiling, it did make my life easier but helicopters are a horrible way to fly through the air and the type of maniac that's mastered the art of somehow keeping those contraptions airborne needs all of the controls at their fingertips. I should also say I love flying in helicopters, there's nothing better than the moment when it stops being a vibrating rattletrap on the ground and rises up into the soft pillow that is a hover.

That combining gearbox was the same on the Bell 212/UH-1N Hueys. That gearbox fails, you may as well have a dual engine failure for all intents and purposes. The Twin Stars really don’t buy you anything. I don’t even like Astars that much, though it’s mainly what I am forced to fly.
 
That combining gearbox was the same on the Bell 212/UH-1N Hueys. That gearbox fails, you may as well have a dual engine failure for all intents and purposes. The Twin Stars really don’t buy you anything. I don’t even like Astars that much, though it’s mainly what I am forced to fly.
"...forced to fly"? It's a free country brother... :smoke:
 
"...forced to fly"? It's a free country brother... :smoke:

Look I know “S3x werk” is real work is all the rage now or whatever…

But do any of us want to know we contributed to MikeD starting an Onlyfans…Can you sleep with yourself knowing what you caused…

You should be more careful with suggestions that might lead to such a nightmare in the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Back
Top