Martinaire, Ameriflight, Mountain Air Cargo

[Mano]

I'm a former Navy instructor pilot looking to get back in the cockpit after being out for a few years. Right now I'm doing my due diligence researching opportunities (specifically in Michigan) ranging from CFI jobs to big freight like IFL and Kalitta. I exceed all hours minimums every company is looking for, with the one big caveat that none of my flight time counts as multi engine.

This week I came across the smaller/feeder cargo services offered by Martinaire, AMF and MAC. I have a decent grasp on what those jobs entail, but I'm hoping some current or former employees of those carriers might be able to answer a few questions (bonus if anyone has familiarity with operations in Michigan).

- What is a typical work week (5-7days, same or changing routes daily)?
- Do they have call outs where you're babysitting a phone for 24 hours a day, hoping to get a flight?
- How is the work culture (positive employees, good relations with management)?
- What's the quality of maintenance department?
- How are the aircraft equipped (glass or analog cockpits, GPS, etc)?
- What exactly does being a standby or floater pilot mean?
- Do they have a respectable benefit plan (medical, dental, major holidays)?

I appreciate any insight members can offer. I realize some may be tempted to say, "With your hours just get your MEL and apply to Endeavor or Express at DTW," but that doesn't particularly appeal to me right now.

Thanks.

 

[Hacker15e]

I realize some may be tempted to say, "With your hours just get your MEL and apply to Endeavor or Express at DTW," but that doesn't particularly appeal to me right now.

Well, the best advice IMHO is the one you don't want to hear.

If you want to end up at a larger career carrier (either airline or freight), the fastest way there is going to be swallowing your pride, bracing your bank account, and getting some 121 multi jet time at a regional.

Anything else and you are seriously just prolonging the time between now and being at a carrier with pay you can make a long-term career with. That doesn't seem an appealing option, either, from either a pay or quality of life standpoint.

Unless, of course, you have other career goals that you haven't communicated...or other background factors that might keep you from working at one of the airlines or major freight carriers.

 

[z987k]

The only job you're going to get without a multi is in a Caravan. So you should focus on the Fedex Feeders and I think Martinaire flies them also. I guess maybe something in a 206 or other smaller piston single.

The typical freight feeder schedule is 6 days a week, Monday night through Saturday morning.
Pay is crap(hope you don't have a family).
Same airport or 2 every day.
Babysitting a phone 24 hours a day on call out is illegal unless that call out is 10 hours.
Floater pilots are usually used all over the respective companies system to fill vacations, people quitting, etc.
Most don't have much or any retirement, benefits will probably not be cheap.
Mx is usually good enough.
It's a job you take just so that you can get a better one. If take it as a long term job you're probably going to hate your life.

The only single engine jobs I would personally consider would be ones with floats attached. At least then it's fun.

I'm trying to think of what the Navy flies that is single engine. Unless you have a mutli with a center line thrust restriction, in which case, my god go get it removed, no one will care that your multi time is center line thrust.

 

[Hacker15e]

Unless you have a mutli with a center line thrust restriction, in which case, my god go get it removed, no one will care that your multi time is center line thrust.

There is no such thing as "center line thrust multi engine" time. It is just multiengine time.

Was @Mano a Navy helo dude?

There are a couple former military helo guys here on JC who have made their way to the regionals. I know a couple who've put in their time at the regionals and moved on to larger career airlines, too.

 

[z987k]

There is no such thing as "center line thrust multi engine" time. It is just multiengine time.

Was @Mano a Navy helo dude?

That's my point. Aside from having the restriction, no one cares what it was in.

 

[Hacker15e]

That's my point. Aside from having the restriction, no one cares what it was in.

I was more referring at his statement that, "none of my flight time counts as multi engine." I took that to mean he doesn't have a CL-restricted multi with time in a CL thrust airplane because there's no such thing as "CL thrust multi time". I have about 2,500 hours in airplanes that the FAA defines as CL thrust, and all of it "counts as multi engine".

Besides, what military pilot introduces themselves as such and then doesn't even mention what weapon system they spent their time flying?

 

[JeppUpdater]

- What is a typical work week (5-7days, same or changing routes daily)?

Most routes are outstation based (pick your small city of choice), fly to a larger "gateway city" at night, overnight in company-provided accommodations, and return in the morning. Routes run either M-F or M-S typically.

- Do they have call outs where you're babysitting a phone for 24 hours a day, hoping to get a flight?

None of the aforementioned companies use 24-hour on call that I know of, though there will be reserve pilots who cover stuff. Likely a morning pilot and evening pilot.

- How is the work culture (positive employees, good relations with management)?

FedEx Feeder good; UPS feeder bad. Met plenty of career FedEx Feeder guys who really enjoyed it. Never met a AMF or MRA guy who was there an extended time by choice. Most AMF/MRA guys are get in, get your time, GTFO.

- What's the quality of maintenance department?

FedEx Feeder good; UPS feeder bad. FedEx pays for maintenance on the Feeder aircraft and runs a tight ship. AMF and MRA/Michigan don't have the best reputation.

- How are the aircraft equipped (glass or analog cockpits, GPS, etc)?

FedEx Feeder good; UPS feeder bad. To expound a little - FedEx planes will be glass, at the very least a Garmin avionics stack. MRA guys will still have 20 year old junk, though AMF may be changing this over for ADS-B compliance.

- What exactly does being a standby or floater pilot mean?

It means you're the whipping boy for the company. Every company does this differently. A local standby will cover the local routes, charters, overflow freight, broken airplanes, sick pilots, etc. A floater pilot may be assigned anywhere in the system as needed, so you could theoretically spend weeks on the road.

- Do they have a respectable benefit plan (medical, dental, major holidays)?

All will have some benefits. I'd venture FedEx's are better than the other (along with pay). Holidays will be "off" but you'll likely be on an overnight in your gateway city, and Christmas in a gateway city isn't exactly Christmas with the family.

Moral of the story as an ex-CP of one of these companies: go to the FedEx feeder of your choice if this is something you want to do. Better equipment, better treatment, no touching the freight. If that doesn't work, I'd suggest AMF long before I'd suggest MRA in Michigan.

 

[ppragman]

Come to Alaska. You can make good money up north, shoot me a PM I may know of a place with SE airplanes that has a bunch of former AF and Navy guys.

 

[killbilly]

There is no such thing as "center line thrust multi engine" time. It is just multiengine time.

Was @Mano a Navy helo dude?

There are a couple former military helo guys here on JC who have made their way to the regionals. I know a couple who've put in their time at the regionals and moved on to larger career airlines, too.

The Goshawk is single-engine. He said he was an instructor pilot. Maybe that's it?

 

[Hacker15e]

The Goshawk is single-engine. He said he was an instructor pilot. Maybe that's it?

No such thing as a career instructor pilot in the Navy.

The OP had to have done time in the fleet at some point if he was a regular Navy pilot. If he had said he was a Marine, I could have bought him flying the T-6/T-34, then T-45, then Harrier, then back to the VTs as an instructor.

But he would have said "Marine" if he was.

 

[Mano]

Alright, thanks for all the replies. So everyone doesn't spend time going through the entire Navy aircraft inventory, I was an H-60 guy in the fleet and a T-34C instructor in my last squadron. I guess I worded not having multi time pretty clumsily.

As for my current disinterest in going immediately for my MEL and a regional job, my rationale is pretty straightforward: I've been out of the cockpit a few years and all my flight time is military. I'd like to get back in the saddle and get some civilian work exposure before trying to climb the ladder.

I get that a freight job flying for these companies isn't a long-term career plan and I am looking at it as a transitional step. I've found a local flight school that accepts the GI Bill where I can get my MEL. I'm simply trying to be deliberate in how I get back into this. Spending a year at AMF/MAC/wherever has utility to me.

Thanks again and anyone else with info/insight to offer, feel free to chime in. It's all appreciated.

 

[Finny]

Alright, thanks for all the replies. So everyone doesn't spend time going through the entire Navy aircraft inventory, I was an H-60 guy in the fleet and a T-34C instructor in my last squadron. I guess I worded not having multi time pretty clumsily.

As for my current disinterest in going immediately for my MEL and a regional job, my rationale is pretty straightforward: I've been out of the cockpit a few years and all my flight time is military. I'd like to get back in the saddle and get some civilian work exposure before trying to climb the ladder.

I get that a freight job flying for these companies isn't a long-term career plan and I am looking at it as a transitional step. I've found a local flight school that accepts the GI Bill where I can get my MEL. I'm simply trying to be deliberate in how I get back into this. Spending a year at AMF/MAC/wherever has utility to me.

Thanks again and anyone else with info/insight to offer, feel free to chime in. It's all appreciated.

That's a great idea to try to get your feet wet again in the civilian world. However, single pilot freight is going to be a far less forgiving environment than a 121 multi crew job. Honestly if your end goal in 121, go get instrument current in a multi and get a 121 job NOW rather than later. Seniority is everything in that world.

If you have any questions about going into that style of training let me know, I'd be happy to help out.

 

[Hacker15e]

A regional is a perfect place to get recurrent.

I retired from the AF recently, non current having been out of flying almost 4 years. I went to a regional and it all worked out well. I highly recommend it.

 

[Hacker15e]

Is the APTAP forum still around? That's where Army rotorheads used to share how to get Multis and ATPs and jobs at regionals.

If you can get your multi ATP, any regional would be eager to hire a Navy-trained pilot. There will be differing views on your rotary wing time, though, so explore that depending on how your flight time breaks down.

 

[CFIT99]

When I was a CA at the regionals it was very common to see guys as FO's from the military.

I flew with at least 4 that flew harriers,hornets and heavies (the U2 guy had a lot of cool stories)

Most had taken a promotion that lead to a desk and non flying duties for several years and they needed.

The Big 3 wanted recency experience which they hadn't flown for at least 5 years

All of them spent less then a year at the regionals before going to the majors.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well @Mano - what's the end goal? Career at feeders? Career at a legacy airline?

The answer to those questions will guide your path. Simple fact is, if legacy is your goal, you should highly consider what @Hacker15e has said.

 

[Mano]

Yeah @SpiceWeasel, he's given me some great points to take under consideration. And I'm still formulating an end goal which is why I'm trying to get as much advice and perspective from you all. This is all new to me.

 

[Hacker15e]

Somewhat relevant post to this topic over on APC today:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/71454-martinaire-caravan-down.html#post2142930

Well, this investigation was done 5 days before my son died while flying a Caravan maintained by Martinaire. It says a turbine blade failed which caused eventual loss of power. This was a compressor turbine blade. The independent inspector, hired by my attorney, also found turbine blade failure in the engine from my son's crashed Caravan. Yet, this did not come out in the public report as they claimed my son got spatial disorientation. Martinaire and the NTSB blamed my son for the accident to protect the industry. It's as simple as that.

So a little warning to you pilots wanting to fly for Martinaire. Their shoddy maintenance causes crashes. They don't care about your life and will cover up evidence to save their butts.

 

[Roger Roger]

Somewhat relevant post to this topic over on APC today:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/71454-martinaire-caravan-down.html#post2142930

That's not necessarily Martinaire (even assuming the ambulance chaser is right for once). The Pratt ct blades are a fleet wide problem that they're pretty successfully sweeping under the rug in the name of the famous PT6 reliability.

 

[USMCmech]

Somewhat relevant post to this topic over on APC today:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/71454-martinaire-caravan-down.html#post2142930

This guy is a grieving father who got hooked by an ambulance chaser. The accident was classic spatial disorientation taking off from a dark poorly lit airport into low clouds. The poor guy was just off IOE and had little actual instrument time. The engine had little or nothing to do with the crash. If it had, the NTSB would have identified it as a casual factor, but they did not.

From the NTSB probable cause "An aircraft performance GPS and simulation study indicated that the airplane entered a right bank almost immediately after takeoff and then made a 42 degree right turn and that it was accelerating throughout the flight, from about 75 knots groundspeed shortly after liftoff to about 145 knots groundspeed at impact. The airplane was climbing about 500 to 700 feet per minute to a peak altitude of about 260 feet above the ground before descending. The simulation showed a gas generator speed of about 93 percent throughout the flight. The study indicated that the load factor vectors, which were the forces felt by the pilot, could have produced a somatogravic illusion of a climb, even while the airplane was descending. The postaccident examination of the airframe and engine revealed no evidence of mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation. Based on the findings from the aircraft performance GPS and simulation study, the degraded visual reference conditions present about the time of the accident, and the forces felt by the pilot, it is likely that he experienced spatial disorientation, which led to his inadvertent controlled descent into terrain"


I had my issues at Martinaire (namely the pay scale), but Maintenance was never a problem. The planes were old and lived a hard life, but whenever I wrote up a problem (including a few that were pilot induced) it was fixed as soon as practical. There was never any pressure from managment to fly a broken airplane.