Life at Compass

TallWeeds said:
Perhaps the problem is the absolute obsession with minutia here. Bad landings and a lack of practical automation management are ok and you'll still complete OE. Lord help you though if you don't physically hold the checklist in your hand, you "set takeoff flaps 2", or you send for takeoff data for two runways. We need to be looking at the big picture here.
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So the LCA get upset when you send for numbers for multiple runways?

MM used to always say "nooooope" every time is said set instead of select.

I agree with holding the checklist instead of memorizing it. That's the cheapest CYA around.
 
TallWeeds said:
Perhaps the problem is the absolute obsession with minutia here. Lord help you though if you don't physically hold the checklist in your hand
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Apparently you run your own show differently, but if you ever have a fed on the jumpseat, here's some friendly advice for you.




"When accomplishing required checklist items, including normal checklists and QRH/QRCs, the checklist shall be held, reviewed and read by the appropriate crewmember. At no time shall checklist items be conducted from memory or viewed from a remote location." [121.315(a), 121.315(c)]



Sec. 121.315 — Cockpit check procedure.
(a) Each certificate holder shall provide an approved cockpit check procedure for each type of aircraft.

(b) The approved procedures must include each item necessary for flight crewmembers to check for safety before starting engines, taking off, or landing, and in engine and systems emergencies. The procedures must be designed so that a flight crewmember will not need to rely upon his memory for items to be checked.

(c) The approved procedures must be readily usable in the cockpit of each aircraft and the flight crew shall follow them when operating the aircraft.
 
I'm not saying memorize it. That's a terrible idea. It must be read. However, the part in our books that state it must be held in your hand as opposed to the yoke clip seems a bit aggressive.
 
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TallWeeds said:
I'm not saying memorize it. That's a terrible idea. It must be read. However, the part in our books that state it must be held in your hand as opposed to the yoke clip seems a bit aggressive.
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This^^^^^
Some guys read it while it is clipped to the yoke. This will get your hand slapped for no good reason. As a Captain I take no issue with this as the individual is still reading it. The anal retentiveness here is amazing.
 
JetDoc said:
This^^^^^
Some guys read it while it is clipped to the yoke. This will get your hand slapped for no good reason. As a Captain I take no issue with this as the individual is still reading it. The anal retentiveness here is amazing.
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The photons that hit the checklist and reflect back to my eyeball are only comprehensible when my finger skin is contact with said checklist. THATS why.
 
I must be a terrible pilot but... how do you not lose your place when you read a checklist clipped to the yoke, hear the response, and look up at the item on the panel to verify the response is correct?
 
SpiceWeasel said:
I must be a terrible pilot but... how do you not lose your place when you read a checklist clipped to the yoke, hear the response, and look up at the item on the panel to verify the response is correct?
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Not every checklist is challenge and response. Some are flow, then verify. Some are 1 single item. Many responses the challenger cannot visually look up to verify anything, only wait to hear the other guy respond "tested" or "checked".

I think everyone agrees: require us to read the checklist, not memorize it. But why are we focusing so much energy and getting wrapped around the axle about picking it up and holding it as the only way it can be read? I personally hold it in my hand every time, mostly because I don't like it on the yoke clip. If the other guy reads it off the clip, I could care less.
I think the whole point of the argument is that some human persons focus so much attention on being perfect to the T on everything. Thats a great goal, and we can all be better. But its refreshing when the big picture, practical, common sense solution is shown higher value than the rote, impractical, minor, non-imperative.
 
cactusjuba said:
Not every checklist is challenge and response. Some are flow, then verify. Some are 1 single item. Many responses the challenger cannot visually look up to verify anything, only wait to hear the other guy respond "tested" or "checked".

I think everyone agrees: require us to read the checklist, not memorize it. But why are we focusing so much energy and getting wrapped around the axle about picking it up and holding it as the only way it can be read? I personally hold it in my hand every time, mostly because I don't like it on the yoke clip. If the other guy reads it off the clip, I could care less.
I think the whole point of the argument is that some human persons focus so much attention on being perfect to the T on everything. Thats a great goal, and we can all be better. But its refreshing when the big picture, practical, common sense solution is shown higher value than the rote, impractical, minor, non-imperative.
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Uh what? If you're not verifying switch position and only relying on the response I think you're doing it wrong. "HYD 3A Pump" "On" (I move my eyes from the checklist to the panel every time, regardless of "do verify" or "read do")
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Uh what? If you're not verifying switch position and only relying on the response I think you're doing it wrong. "HYD 3A Pump" "On" (I move my eyes from the checklist to the panel every time, regardless of "do verify" or "read do")
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Ok, but say on the preflight check, "emergency equipment, oxygen/PBE, DVDR", you aren't checking at that point in time that they were checked, tested or whatever. He was saying that some items were supposed to already be verified and that the checklist serves as the reminder to that. If I say "DVDR" and he says "tested", looking up at the Test Switch on the DVDR panel won't actually tell me if he did it or not.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Uh what? If you're not verifying switch position and only relying on the response I think you're doing it wrong. "HYD 3A Pump" "On" (I move my eyes from the checklist to the panel every time, regardless of "do verify" or "read do")
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We're not referring to QRH/QRC procedures and checklists. Fairly certain folks are talking about standard checklists.
 
I feel like this is the sort of stuff @TallWeeds was talking about. How to read a checklist is basic basic stuff, but the posts above illustrate how people go out of their way to add complexity. There's not much wiggle room with something so simple. Do it by the book, case closed. I've flown with @TallWeeds at two different airlines now; crazy smart dude who can quote anything from any book, yet also look at the big picture and get the job done. I don't think he was arguing that you shouldn't be holding the checklist, rather that when people are trying to intercept a 3.0 glide path from above by setting FPA 2.8...focusing on items like how they hold the checklist should be a lower priority than say, this is how an airplane works you need to go down, push down on the yoke...no no, the other down.
 
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TallWeeds said:
Perhaps the problem is the absolute obsession with minutia here. Bad landings and a lack of practical automation management are ok and you'll still complete OE. Lord help you though if you don't physically hold the checklist in your hand, you "set takeoff flaps 2", or you send for takeoff data for two runways. We need to be looking at the big picture here.
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I've been corrected by several captains for doing this (one of the a LCA). What am I missing? Does the ACARS burn more gas to get 2 or even *gasp* 3 runways checked? Are we charged for ACARS by the character? The LCA told me it was because they take longer to get back. So what? I'm willing to wait 17 seconds instead of the 13 to get the data back if it means we don't have to stop out on the taxi way like boobs while we wait to "run the numbers."
 
poser765 said:
I've been corrected by several captains for doing this (one of the a LCA). What am I missing? Does the ACARS burn more gas to get 2 or even *gasp* 3 runways checked? Are we charged for ACARS by the character? The LCA told me it was because they take longer to get back. So what? I'm willing to wait 17 seconds instead of the 13 to get the data back if it means we don't have to stop out on the taxi way like boobs while we wait to "run the numbers."
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The only time I ever sent for one runway only was if the airport only had one runway. Every other time I sent for two or three....not a single captain said a thing to me about it.....compass management has proven time and time again they prefer to do things harder not smarter
 
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