Life at Compass

jtrain609 said:
Maybe some more Scheduled IOE on trips with a lot of legs? You know...like other airlines?
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Most of these hard landings happen on the 2nd leg of IOE, so it's gotta be something else. More emphasis on landings in the Sim would not necessarily transfer to the real airplane. Personally I think it's the quality of IOE candidates, some of them just don't have great landing skills.
 
Nanopilot said:
Most of these hard landings happen on the 2nd leg of IOE, so it's gotta be something else. More emphasis on landings in the Sim would not necessarily transfer to the real airplane. Personally I think it's the quality of IOE candidates, some of them just don't have great landing skills.
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Or perhaps the CKA's can be a bit more cognizant of the situation and help apply a little more back pressure his or her self in the flare and then debrief about it afterwards instead of just letting the poor guy/gal slam the thing into the ground. I have done the same myself more than once with the new guys. This actually shouldn't be happening at the rate it is IMHO.
 
JetDoc said:
Or perhaps the CKA's can be a bit more cognizant of the situation and help apply a little more back pressure his or her self in the flare and then debrief about it afterwards instead of just letting the poor guy/gal slam the thing into the ground. I have done the same myself more than once with the new guys. This actually shouldn't be happening at the rate it is IMHO.
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It is a fine line on when to intervene in landing with new folks. Especially at first you need to be on your toes and yes applying back pressure in the flare will avert a firm or hard landing and the person may learn from it being debriefed, BUT I still need to see them do it without my intervening. I'm not saying don't intervene if you expect a hard landing, but not every firm landing is hard.

My experience is once a guy has a firm landing, he learns that "hey...ok, I need to pull a little more". You can't just intervene every leg and expect them to learn.

Most the time the guys are looking way to close to the landings and I would bark out at 50' "eyes to the end of the runway!". That seemed to get folks to see the sink rate.
 
BlueMoon said:
It is a fine line on when to intervene in landing with new folks. Especially at first you need to be on your toes and yes applying back pressure in the flare will avert a firm or hard landing and the person may learn from it being debriefed, BUT I still need to see them do it without my intervening. I'm not saying don't intervene if you expect a hard landing, but not every firm landing is hard.

My experience is once a guy has a firm landing, he learns that "hey...ok, I need to pull a little more". You can't just intervene every leg and expect them to learn.

Most the time the guys are looking way to close to the landings and I would bark out at 50' "eyes to the end of the runway!". That seemed to get folks to see the sink rate.
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Bark?

On the topic of intervening, what are your thoughts on intervening for a new hire line check after also instructing them the whole trip?
 
BlueMoon said:
It is a fine line on when to intervene in landing with new folks. Especially at first you need to be on your toes and yes applying back pressure in the flare will avert a firm or hard landing and the person may learn from it being debriefed, BUT I still need to see them do it without my intervening. I'm not saying don't intervene if you expect a hard landing, but not every firm landing is hard.

My experience is once a guy has a firm landing, he learns that "hey...ok, I need to pull a little more". You can't just intervene every leg and expect them to learn.

Most the time the guys are looking way to close to the landings and I would bark out at 50' "eyes to the end of the runway!". That seemed to get folks to see the sink rate.
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Since the pilot is new why don't you discuss it before TOD? Even if it's a line check you don't need to set someone else up for failure.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Bark?

On the topic of intervening, what are your thoughts on intervening for a new hire line check after also instructing them the whole trip?
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Bark is the wrong word, it was just said to cue the person to stop staring at the tdz and to look down the runway. It was discussed prior to TOD, to help remedy late or no flare.
 
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BlueMoon said:
It is a fine line on when to intervene in landing with new folks. Especially at first you need to be on your toes and yes applying back pressure in the flare will avert a firm or hard landing and the person may learn from it being debriefed, BUT I still need to see them do it without my intervening. I'm not saying don't intervene if you expect a hard landing, but not every firm landing is hard.

My experience is once a guy has a firm landing, he learns that "hey...ok, I need to pull a little more". You can't just intervene every leg and expect them to learn.

Most the time the guys are looking way to close to the landings and I would bark out at 50' "eyes to the end of the runway!". That seemed to get folks to see the sink rate.
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The post I was responding to was that out of 19 hard landing events in 2015, 75% happened on the second leg of IOE which typically the new hires leg and very first landing. I see nothing wrong with helping a guy out on his very first attempt. Those hard landings could have been averted if the CKA was paying attention. With a thorough debrief after such an event I feel learning would occur. What you DON'T need to see is them trying to jam the gear up through the wings. If you are having to do help out landing after landing, why yes there is a problem.
 
BlueMoon said:
It is a fine line on when to intervene in landing with new folks. Especially at first you need to be on your toes and yes applying back pressure in the flare will avert a firm or hard landing and the person may learn from it being debriefed, BUT I still need to see them do it without my intervening. I'm not saying don't intervene if you expect a hard landing, but not every firm landing is hard.

My experience is once a guy has a firm landing, he learns that "hey...ok, I need to pull a little more". You can't just intervene every leg and expect them to learn.

Most the time the guys are looking way to close to the landings and I would bark out at 50' "eyes to the end of the runway!". That seemed to get folks to see the sink rate.
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1. if a person gets out of ioe and still can't consistently land the airplane in a safe manner, that's a failure on the LCA giving him OE. There are extensions available for a reason.
2. this knee jerk reaction cpz is going to take will lead to tail strikes due to guys now thinking about it and floating and then bam tail strike.
 
Flew 1 leg with a brand spanking new FO and gave him the leg. Real sharp and was impressed. Until we landed. Zero flair and he wasn't aware that what he did was odd. There's no way (I hope) that he performed this way during IOE and was signed off. We talked about it for a while after chocked and me thinks he has a good understanding of landing the airplane now.
 
Perhaps the problem is the absolute obsession with minutia here. Bad landings and a lack of practical automation management are ok and you'll still complete OE. Lord help you though if you don't physically hold the checklist in your hand, you "set takeoff flaps 2", or you send for takeoff data for two runways. We need to be looking at the big picture here.
 
TallWeeds said:
Perhaps the problem is the absolute obsession with minutia here. Bad landings and a lack of practical automation management are ok and you'll still complete OE. Lord help you though if you don't physically hold the checklist in your hand, you "set takeoff flaps 2", or you send for takeoff data for two runways. We need to be looking at the big picture here.
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Hence my previous comment.
 
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