Jet Slips off NY Runway and Into Snow

manniax

Well-met in the Ka-tet
News article link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/united-jet-slips-off-runway-ny-injuries-18092649#.UOLCCOQ0V8E

Initial thoughts upon reading the article, for dispatchers....

1.) Always remember to check your field condition reports, especially if a station you fly to is experiencing frozen precip. And, don't forget to see what they say about the taxiways as well - don't just focus on runway braking action.

2.) Field condition reports aren't always accurate, so don't be afraid to ask for PIREPs.
 
Good points. Many dispatchers do think "Well, the runway is fine, but the taxiways are the pilots' problem," which is unfortunate and not looking out for the company.
 
Good points. Many dispatchers do think "Well, the runway is fine, but the taxiways are the pilots' problem," which is unfortunate and not looking out for the company.

This. It's kind of like cat 2 approaches. "Sweet, we got in...now how the hell do we get to the gate?

I really think there needs to be a more standard way of giving field conditions. Having them burried amongst a million impertinent NOTAMs certainly makes it more difficult to find. My favorite was the LGA NOTAM that said that all surfaces had bent treated with dry chemical deicer...that NOTAM stayed in our packets until about July.

Calling things "good/fair/poor/nill" is rather subjective.

Not really sure what the answer is, but figuring out landing distances when the weather is crap is one if the times that I always get the "well, I hope we are doing it right" feeling in my gut.
 
It's also a good idea to call the tower as well as operations for that station as well especially if the NOTAMS are not up to date and the reported WX and forecast is showing FZRA/SHSN.

Also, make sure you talk to the PIC before departure as well since pre-planning is a joint duty.
 
Calling things "good/fair/poor/nill" is rather subjective.

Not really sure what the answer is, but figuring out landing distances when the weather is crap is one if the times that I always get the "well, I hope we are doing it right" feeling in my gut.

Braking action reports are a chance for me to play the "better safe than sorry" card. All it takes is one pilot to report a "poor" for me to not feel comfortable with an aircraft going into that airport without a plow or treatment. In fact, me NOT actioning that would put liability on me if something were to happen.

I have no problem calling towers regularly to get updated reports on runway conditions, pilot reports, and what their plow/treatment schedule is. I then share it with my team. Though I wish some of my teammates told me when they called the tower as well, as it is embarrassing to hear "Didn't your airline just call me?"
 
Braking action reports are a chance for me to play the "better safe than sorry" card. All it takes is one pilot to report a "poor" for me to not feel comfortable with an aircraft going into that airport without a plow or treatment. In fact, me NOT actioning that would put liability on me if something were to happen.

I have no problem calling towers regularly to get updated reports on runway conditions, pilot reports, and what their plow/treatment schedule is. I then share it with my team. Though I wish some of my teammates told me when they called the tower as well, as it is embarrassing to hear "Didn't your airline just call me?"

I agree. My problem really isn't how it is handled by our dispatchers, but rather how subjective the data is. Braking action reported fair? Ok, by what? Car, truck, 172, etc. I suppose I'll provide an example.

Two weeks or so ago we were flying IAD-ROC. Dispatcher did an awesome job getting us prepared to go up there. Winds were gusting to the upper 40s and it was snowing. Dispatch release wasn't ready, so we called the dispatcher to see what was happening, we assumed it was related to the weather. He said he was waiting to hear back from ROC tower. When he heard back braking action for the long runway was reported good, but the short runway was fair. Unfortunately the long runway would give us a borderline unacceptable crosswind under these conditions. No problem, he ran the numbers for the short runway and because of such a strong headwind component, we would be fine. We're happy with it and blast off to ROC.

I go to run the landing data, even with the wind and the and thrust reverser credit, the data wasn't acceptable to us after we entered the "fair" modifier in the ACARS. It said we were within limits on the actual landing distance, but not the "required." One of those legal, but not safe issues. We ended up opting for the long runway because braking was still reported good. But if that had not been the case we would have been well over our crosswind limitation for braking less than good.

My point being I have no doubt the dispatcher entered the information correctly (we verified it on the paperwork) and found that we were clearly within limits before we dispatched. But because of the subjective nature of braking reports, we came up with more conservative numbers.
 
It's also a good idea to call the tower as well as operations for that station as well especially if the NOTAMS are not up to date and the reported WX and forecast is showing FZRA/SHSN.

Also, make sure you talk to the PIC before departure as well since pre-planning is a joint duty.
One of the first things they talked about when we were taught about icing conditions, and NOTAMs: Call the tower and ask how long it'll be before braking action is no longer nill...
 
Call the tower. You people have it easy. I called up the auto repair shop across from the airport the other day. "Hey what's the runway across the street look like? Snow covered? Icy?" "Nope, looks nice."
Nice... lets see that's equivalent to what mu number?
 
z987k, if the runway conditions are that much of a concern, then conditions should probably keep you at home that day.
 
z987k, if the runway conditions are that much of a concern, then conditions should probably keep you at home that day.
Why would the runway conditions not be a concern? It snows all the time, the airport doesn't have weather reporting and the manager lives an hour away. If I haven't been there in 2 weeks, I'd like to have an idea of what it's like. If the county has bothered to plow it, etc.
 
Sounds like you need to choose a new airport to operate at. Just my opinion. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary hassle.
 
Sounds like you need to choose a new airport to operate at. Just my opinion. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary hassle.
Client wants to go there, I'm going to check and see if it's possible. If not then we don't. It's part of my job - flight planning. If you ever fly into some of these "middle on nowhere is closer to civilization than this" type airports, it's rather typical.
 
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