Is this a good school.

[Ophir]

I totally agree that Gulfstream would be a waste of time, that was what I was trying to convey. But not all ab initio programs are like that. You should research all of them to get an idea of thier programs. Thier scopes can be broad ranging, from Gulfstream to something like Embry-Riddle's First Officer program, which is ab initio. Not all are bad.


The pilots I have met say, get your time, get anyway you can. Buy it if you need to. Airlines are looking for experience and training. IF they find this they save time training you. Seems to make sense.

 

[flyallday]

Well, for me, I dont have one family member, not one friend, not one friend of a friend that is a pilot. So what anybody tells me on this site that is the best source of information I've got.. So with that said, Doug and a few other guys said to stay away from those kind of programs so thats what I'm going to do.

Now, lets say you join one of those programs. Lets say its Gulfsteam since that is one that I know of. You get your ratings in about 6-7 months, around 250TT. Gulfstream puts you in the right seat of there airline. Think about this for a second. Yeah its cool to be able to tell people that your a F/O at Gulfstream. But think to yourself, 250 hours. Do you think your ready to fly paying passengers around. People are putting there life's in your hands. You think with only 250 hours you have enough experience to handle that. After that when your 250 hours are up, your going to have 500 hours, no CFI ratings to fall back on.... You think an airline is going to hire you.. Plus have you heard of some of those story's about how pilots hate other pilots that go into these kinda programs... Think to yourself, do you really want it like that, you want to pay 25,000 for a job....

But thats only my opinion

 

[flyallday]

Now that I think about it, you can make the case that your paying for your CFI job at WSA, FSI, etc... But when you think about it, at least when you a CFI you are the one making all the decisions, your the one with the most experience, your like that captain of the aircraft... If you attend one of those ab things, your going to do your training, then go right into the right seat. You will never have the experience of making decisions and I would think when an airline takes a look at your resume they put that into consideration.

 

[Stang61]

Just a little insight into Westwind.....

I'm currently in the right seat direct program, started in april of this year. Like all of the schools, WSA has both its positives and negatives.

For the positives:
-Your going to get some of the best flight training out there.
-The maintenance is excellent for the most part, sometimes they defer squaks a little too long.
-Nice brand new facilities.
-Nice equipment- fleet includes about a dozen 152's, 5-6 172 n/p, about 2 dozen 172 r/sp's, 4 172 rg's, and 3 piper seminoles.

Negatives:
-Pricing given- The price given is called the "budget price," no one finishes under that price. In fact all of the students at the school are frustrated because of that, it adds another source of stress on whether or not your going to finish under budget. In one of the advertisements in which they are two brothers being advertised, they claim that they finished under budget, but they did there training a couple years ago under a different sylabus.
-Timeline- Again your not going to finish under the timeline given. I think the packet says 10 mos. However, you will only finish in that time period if you have no aircraft go down on you, if you study 24 hours, if you can get by all of your progress checks, and if you can make deadlines for entering ground schools. You need to finish your training for your previous rating a week before the next ground school starts. If you don't finish, then thats a month of wasted time.
-Morale among students and instructors- When you first get there, they throw a welcoming party and your first impressions are high. Then after a while when you put up with the B.S. you get frustrated. Instructors when they first start there are always gung ho and will work for you. Then when they get experience under there belts they get frustrated. The instructors will put in about 10 hours a day of work, but usually will get paid for only about 6 of that. Reasons, breaks between students, aircraft going down, aircraft availibility.
-Infighting with administration- The administration is always fighting with each other for power.
-They have a very nice simulator that represents the Beech/Raytheon 1900D. But is that really necessary when you get to the airlines? They are looking for multi-time not sim time. Your only going to get about 15 hours of multi-time where your going to need a minimum fo 100 hrs for the commuters and on average more than 200 hrs.

Bottomline- When you get the nice looking packet in the mail consider what I have said. Your going to get great training, but you need to budget your money for about a year of living expenses and about 5-10,000 additional in expenses to complete ratings.

Phoenix Area- The phoenix area is nice, especially up in the deer valley area. You can't beat the cost of living here unless you move to Oklahoma or something. Rent is cheap, gas is cheaper, and I guess the food is probably the same everywhere. Scottsdale is in close proximity, and there is always something fun to do there.

 

[flyallday]

I keep on emailing the school but they never reply, in there booklet it says you can get a 4 year degree for 8,000. But I emailed UVSC and they said it will cost 13,000, but I didn't ask if you get a discount for attending WSA. Do you have any insight on that.

I visited the school on the 10th, I think the new classes start on the 9th of every month, maybe thats why everybody seemed so happy.

Are landing fee's included with the price?

Well, no matter what school you go to everybody seems to say that you should add 15% to the price quote.

On the average, how long does it take to finish the right seat direct program?

If you had to do it all over again, would you move and go to WSA, or stay home and train at your FBO?

 

[Ophir]

Hey Flyallday, how’s it going? I can shed a little light on the UVSC thing since I am enrolled in their program currently. Basically the $8000 is correct, if you have some transfer credit to add to that number. The number is based on what they will be charging you if you had to take all the aviation courses required to graduate. Now of course you will need all the other courses require to get a bachelors degree. Lucky for me, I have all the transfer credit and so I am going in to it budgeting $7600 for tuition above and beyond all of my flight time and instruction. So far the school has great to work with.

But if you are motivated and you are only going to school, like me, then I think you will be able to make it through and save some money on tuition because they charge the same dollar figure for 18 credits as they do for 12. So if you load up on courses and rifle through your ratings, then the prospect of making it through quickly and saving $ is certainly a viable one. The way the school is structured is that you will receive credit for each rating you get. You will also have an academic course that will go along with that rating, so in the end you will receive 3 credits for your Instrument rating and 3 credits for your Instrument academic course. Each rating has a similar set up and these are considered the lower division courses. The upper division courses are things like CRM and co-operative experience and things of that nature.

In the end, I see it as a pretty good way of getting your degree while training out of an FBO, or WSA. If you have your private of instrument when you come in to the school they will give you credit for those courses.

Going back to our previous conversation regarding ab initio, I think you are confusing ab initio with something bad. All these courses are accelerated. They will give you tons of CFI time if that is the way the program is structured, like Flight Safety. Essentially these programs should be looked at as a structured way of moving through your ratings, part 141 style. For all intents and purposes, WSA is ab initio.

Stang61, thanks for the gouge. How long have you been there? How many ratings have been gotten with them? I can’t believe the program only will get you 10 hours of multi time. But I guess they only have two Seminoles!?

 

[Stang61]

Flyallday,
To answer your questions;
I'm don't know much about the UVSC program since I already had my 4 year degree when I started. I know one of my buddy's is doing the 4 year deal through UVSC and I think he said he was going to pay 9,000, not bad considering i paid about 6 times that amount for my schooling.

Their are no landing fees at Deer Valley.

You can expect to take about 13 mos - 15 mos to complete the program. I have a buddy who is in his 13th month and just started his CFI, and whom is a bright guy. I showed a couple buddies my post and they said I was to generous with my estimates of time and price. They were saying that there are people at westwind who are working on their CFI that have already spent 60,000.

If i were to do it all over, I would probably start at an FBO for private, then transfer into a program. The nice thing about the flight schools is that you can get financing, where at an FBO your paying cash. I know a lot of pilots, and most of them just went the FBO route, got to 500 hours and did some type of VFR 135 operation.

Hope you find this useful,

 

[Stang61]

Thats not very professional that they haven't responded to your email. They have a lady (Claudia) whose job is to return emails.

 

[arizonaflyer]

i've been looking around and there is a place called pilotfinance.com that will finance flight training for fbos.
that way you can just train for ppl and not have to worry about flight expenses only one monthly payment.

 

[AirmetTango]

I disagree somewhat with Strang61's assessment of the positives and negatives for WSA (or any large flight school). For me it breaks down like this:

Positives:
-Fast paced training. This works for me because I believe that the more often you fly, the better the information "sticks".
-You're surrounded by a lot of other people with similar goals. This translates into a great opportunity to learn AND network.
-Very busy airspace, and a variety of local airspace.
-Excellent aircraft with great maintenance.
-Good training, both ground and in-flight.

Negatives
-Fast paced training. It's definitely not for everyone. At WSA (or, again, at any large school) you are expected to live, eat, and breathe flying. If you don't, you WILL fall behind. Falling behind = longer time to complete the program, which is directly proportional to a blown budget.
-In-flight training is good, but not stellar. My 600 hour instructor at WSA knows his stuff and I've learned a lot from him, but does he have as much insight into flying as my former FBO instructor who had 10,000 hours? No.
-Expensive. Don't go to a big school if you expect to save money on your training. FBOs are cheaper, hands down.

I don't see the program price given by the school as a negative. Of course, any school is going to advertise their best price... that's standard marketing (like when you see a car advertised on TV; it looks great priced at $19,999, but that's the price of the stripped model). The price of any school (flight school or traditional university) is also based on finishing the program in the specified time frame. When I went to Penn State for engineering, the school estimated the cost based on completion in four years. To finish in four years, you had to take a certain number of courses per semester. Nowhere did they guarantee that I would finish in four years. I didn't want to take the number of courses each semester that they prescribed....so, it took me longer and cost me more. Similarly, my local FBO quoted me a price for earning my Private Certificate. That price was based on completing the training with the 40 hours required by the FAA. In reality, it took me 67 hours....obviously it cost me more than the quote. The point is, people want to know how much things are going to cost, so schools give a number. No school that I know of will guarantee that number, but it seems most people don't pay attention to the parameters that define that number, and they get very upset when that number is exceeded. When looking at schools, I recommend taking their quote as a minimum and expect that the cost will likely build from there. Also, pay attention to the number and type of hours the quote includes.

I don't see the timeline as a negative, either. Strang61 said, "You need to finish your training for your previous rating a week before the next ground school starts. If you don't finish, then that's a month of wasted time." This isn't true at WSA: We had a student in my instrument ground that hadn't finished his private; his checkride was scheduled for later in the first week of the ground school. He simply explained his situation to Jim Pitman, and he got approved for the instrument ground. Unfortunately, he failed his checkride, so he pulled himself out of the instrument class. He could have stayed, but why put the added pressure on himself to learn brand new material at a fast pace, when he wasn't even done with the previous material yet. Anyway, timelines are a reality anywhere....if I ever failed a required course at Penn State, I would have to wait until the following semester to retake it, putting me behind schedule. Likewise, ground schools at the FBO I went to only started once a month.

Morale seems fine to me....I'm not sure what "B.S." Strang61 has had to "put up with", but I haven't experienced any more B.S. at WSA than what I've come to expect from everyday living.

Strang61 said another negative at WSA was "Infighting with administration - The administration is always fighting with each other for power". I haven't noticed or heard about any infighting yet, but I haven't been at the school as long as Strang61. What I do know is that every school and corporation that I've ever attended or worked for is dominated by people whose chief goal is to generate more power or prestige for themselves....it's human nature. I don't see this negatively affecting the students at WSA.

Anyway, having said all that, I do agree with Strang61's bottomline: assume you'll need at least a year's worth of living expenses, and tack on an additional 20-25% for training. There are no guarantees that you'll finish or that you have the ability to perform well in the fast paced program. If you like to party and don't want to study, think twice before going to any large flight school....you don't have the time to waste if you want to stay on time and on budget, and know the material well enough to convince someone to hire you.

I hope this helps!

Ben

 

[AirmetTango]

Hey flyallday,

It is a little strange that you haven't received a response to your emails if you've tried multiple times...are you using an address for a specific person, or just the general email addresses listed on the website? If you're using the general addresses, I'm not surprised you haven't gotten a response. Claudia Kennedy is actually a Student Admissions Officer along with Jennifer Schiele, and they each have many duties...their job isn't to just "return email"! [] Anyway, if you send a note to the general info or admissions addresses, I imagine it will probably languish for quite some time before anyone really reads it. A much better approach would be to either email them directly (ckennedy@iflywestwind.com or jschiele@iflywestwind.com), or better yet, just call the school and ask for them directly. I know from personal experience that Jen is very friendly and can find the answers to any of your questions.

As far as doing it all over again, I agree with Strang61. I strongly recommend getting your Private at a local FBO. At orientation on the first day at WSA, I was amazed at how many people were starting with zero time. If you get your Private at an FBO, you learn several basic things before you make the full scale commitment to move and take a loan:
1) Do I really like to fly...enough to do it every day for hours?
2) Can I learn to fly and do it well?
3) Do I have the aptitude to do this professionally?
4) Do I have the ability to learn this material at a faster pace?

These are the first basic questions you need to ask yourself, and answer honestly...they might sound obvious and silly, but it's a shame to see many of those zero time pilots wash out because they didn't have any real idea what they were getting into.

In my case, I received my private at a local FBO, and flew for a year privately before making the final decision to go for a flying career. I think that gave me a great foundation on which to build the rest of my training. I've found that I'm having a much easier time with the instrument class than many of the pilots that just earned their private rating last month in an accelerated program. In other words, I like the idea of an accelerated program for the rest of my ratings since I already have a good working knowledge of flying to build on. I don't think an accelerated program is a good idea if you're starting from scratch, because there's no foundation to build on.

 

[flyallday]

I did email Claudia Kennedy, I asked her if there was a waiting list to become a CFI, she said There is no waiting to become a CFII once you have obtain that rating, you will be allocated students.

But I emailed her about 3 times asking if there was a discount because UVSC says it will cost 13,000 and WSA says it will cost 8,000. Never got a response to those emails.

 

[flyallday]

Hey Ophir,


Can you explain to me how UVSC works. What are the schedules like. Are the classes pre recorded and you watch them threw the Internet? Is it a good idea to get a high speed internet connection to download the classes? Or is it like read pages 3-30 and do this and send in your work. You can take as many classes as you want in a day. Like you can take 4 math classes today and 5 English classes tomorrow if you want. What do you think is easier an online college or a normal college?

 

[Ophir]

Well considering I am enrolled in only three courses, I will tell you what I know so far.

I am taking three classes online while I am getting my PPL here in colorado. I will be moving to a closer to a flight school that is affliated with UVSC. At that time I will continue my training with them and receive college credit for each rating I achieve. Simaltaneosly, I will be required to take a coresponding academic course for each rating (i.e. I will have to get my IFR rating from the flight school while at the same time taking an academic course online testing me on IFR). So for each rating you will receive about three college credits and you will get three more each rating because there is an associated class to take.

To get a bachelors in aviation you need to take a number of classes associated with aviation, i.e. Aviation Law, Survey of Aviation, Aerodymics, ATC, etc. (40 lower division and 45 upper division).

You take each course online and go through a series of online lectures which are all in text. You will be asked to participate in an online BBS for each course and a have projects. Most classes have at least one midterm and a final.

In the end you will receive a degree for all you work. I see this as a pretty simple route to take because you will have to go through all your ratings anyway, why not get college credit for them. In the meantime you are required to take other courses which will ulitimately result in becoming a better pilot. And, the cost is not that bad. If you need a bachelors to be truly successful in this field then I will spend the extra $8000 to be edjumacated :smirk:

 

[250blue]

I don't notice an MEI course for the ab initio program on the Westwind site. Does this program include the MEI? Also, does anyone know how much actual multi time you leave the program with and do you have to sign a contract like at Pan Am which charges you to leave?

 

[flyallday]

The addition of the Multi-Engine Instructor Rating may be added to the candidate's Flight Instructor Certificate approximately 90 days after beginning work as a Westwind

Thats straight off there site, cant answer the other questions sorry

 

[250blue]

I found out that you do not have to sign a contract with the school (besides normal rental agreement for the planes, etc), there is no fee to leave the school, you will only have multi time for your multi training (15 or so hours), but they are currently working on a multi time-building program. Does anyone know if this school will get you through in the advertised time?

 

[Snow]

Hey all the info you guys has been very helpful! I've been pretty much gun ho about Pan Am but thought I'd look into Westwind since they're at the same place. I'll have to say I've liked what I've heard so far. I do have some questions however.

1. Are there enough airplanes to go around? the list of a/c doesn't seem very large compaired to Pan Am's 40 a/c

2. Are there any airlines that have some sorta reduced hours hireing agreement with Westwind like some of the schools have?

3. Do they have airline style training? IE the 2 pilot system and do they have a route program?

4. Do they have any kind of glass cockpit training?

Ok if you can asnswer all those that would be a good start I like the idea of the ACE program that pan am has but I guess maybe with the money saved at Westwind I could always do a 737 type rating or even the ACE program itself.

Thanks!