v1valarob
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
You must have gotten on with some non-american airline.
You must have gotten on with some non-american airline.
Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?
- Thread starter ThatOtherDude
- Start date
Cav
Former Maddog Whisperer
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Wow, there's a massive amount of self pity in this thread. First of all, no one is entitled to jack @#$%. You get paid what the market dictates you get paid....or better yet, in our business you get paid what you negotiate. I don't care how much you have invested in training, what you thought your career expectation was, or how much you think you should be paid. Those are all personal issues you must deal with and be responsible for. You either accept things the way they are and vow to do everything in your limited power to do something about improving your situation or you quit and do something else. It's really that simple. I'm not suggesting that anyone on this thread is doing this, but if you are in any way doing a lesser job because of the above mentioned "problems" please do me, your coworkers, our companies, our traveling family members, and our passengers a favor and quit. There's no shame in moving on.
I've heard every excuse in the book lately from some people (CA's and FO's) I work with about why they are doing a half ass job...paycuts, poor career outlook, seniority, etc, etc. There's no excuse for that under ANY circumstances.
Wow, there's a massive amount of self pity in this thread. First of all, no one is entitled to jack @#$%. You get paid what the market dictates you get paid....or better yet, in our business you get paid what you negotiate. I don't care how much you have invested in training, what you thought your career expectation was, or how much you think you should be paid. Those are all personal issues you must deal with and be responsible for. You either accept things the way they are and vow to do everything in your limited power to do something about improving your situation or you quit and do something else. It's really that simple. I'm not suggesting that anyone on this thread is doing this, but if you are in any way doing a lesser job because of the above mentioned "problems" please do me, your coworkers, our companies, our traveling family members, and our passengers a favor and quit. There's no shame in moving on.
I've heard every excuse in the book lately from some people (CA's and FO's) I work with about why they are doing a half ass job...paycuts, poor career outlook, seniority, etc, etc. There's no excuse for that under ANY circumstances.
beechpilot
Well-Known Member
NickH
Uber Driver
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Surely you did some research on Colgan before you accepted employment? You knew the pay scale so why start complaining now? You knew you were accepting employment from one of the bottom feeding airlines out there.
What can ALPA do for wages? Do you honestly think their going to wave their labor wand and wages are going to go through the roof?
For the life of me, I'll never understand why people go to work at a place and then do nothing but b&m over the working conditions (that are well documented before!)
Surely you did some research on Colgan before you accepted employment? You knew the pay scale so why start complaining now? You knew you were accepting employment from one of the bottom feeding airlines out there.
What can ALPA do for wages? Do you honestly think their going to wave their labor wand and wages are going to go through the roof?
For the life of me, I'll never understand why people go to work at a place and then do nothing but b&m over the working conditions (that are well documented before!)
pipepatrol
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I have a feeling this slow down is going to get rid of a lot of people (one way or another) not cut out for this industry. Which well better position those who are still left...
I have a feeling this slow down is going to get rid of a lot of people (one way or another) not cut out for this industry. Which well better position those who are still left...
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I just hope whats left isn't guys that are willing to fly for anything because it's cool.
For some reason I'm not optimistic.
I just hope whats left isn't guys that are willing to fly for anything because it's cool.
For some reason I'm not optimistic.
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I think if some pilots spent half of the time they did complaining on message boards, getting out, and being proactive about taking the career back, and fighting for what they "deserve", you'd see a bit more progess. A few have done it, but they alone cannot do it, without the support from all pilots, at all ranks.
I've never understood why people become pilots, period, and then b&m constantly. It isn't as though payscales, workrules, "typical day in the life of", information, is not readily available to all. I can understand many of the mainline pilots, of today, complaining, but for the life of me, seeing a regional FO complain, endlessly, sometimes, just makes me laugh. Either a lack of research, or ignoring what information was right in front of them; it certainly isn't as though anyone has been forced into the career. It was a choice. Live with it, or leave - as someone else said, "it is that easy". All you have to do if make a choice, even if that choice is to continue flying, while going back to school. I know that is going to make some people angry, but I don't care! It is the truth! When you log onto any aviation message board, it seems all you read are people's b&m-ing. What makes me laugh, is that many of the people complaining, are regional FO's, who just a couple of years ago, were student pilots, themselves, who couldn't wait to get hired by an airline. Now, all they do is complain, yet had all of the information they needed, in their face, about the career, yet still chose to pursue it.
I think if some pilots spent half of the time they did complaining on message boards, getting out, and being proactive about taking the career back, and fighting for what they "deserve", you'd see a bit more progess. A few have done it, but they alone cannot do it, without the support from all pilots, at all ranks.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I had a similar thread where I posted about the time and money we invest only to get rewarded with crap for pay. I was lucky enough to end up where I am and passed on almost two dozen other interviews to come here (including Colgan
). Although that being said had I gone to Colgan when I was hired here (Mid-2005) I'd probably be a pretty senior CA there or at a mainline carrier.
It sucks you got stuck as a junior FO at arguably one of the worst companies as far as QOL and pay goes right now. It sucks for me that I upgraded, pulled up stakes and relocated and bought a house only to get downgraded and my wife unable to find employment in one of the worst job markets in recent history. It sucks for the junior CA's who were finally getting ahead on student loan debt to get kicked back to reserve. It sucks for the junior mainline guys that went from $75k/yr as a CA at a regional to $25k/yr at mainline only to worry about their job every single day.
I'm not sure what happened to my attitude about things in the past few years. As a CFI I was a go-getter, did anything I could to work hard, started working on web sites as a side business, did everything I could to get ahead. It seems I've gotten lazy and have started blaming others or outside sources on my troubles. My wife is great, she is a very positive person and is happy with what we have (she grew up very poor) so she has tried to make me look at it from a better perspective. But I know what you are saying.
No one is going to make things happen for you, there are people out there right now with jobs they like that make money doing it. For instance I like older Volvos and have started looking at "flipping" them in my garage - buy a broken car for cheap $$ and bring it back to life. Either that or parting them out on ebay and shipping the parts over seas, as there is a huge demand for older Volvo parts in S. America (if you follow them, the 850 and early 70 series) right now paying 3x what I can buy them for from the dealer! The point wasn't to start doing that put look around you and while the idea may not be great (as in shipping parts to a 3rd world country...) it may lead you to something else more viable in your spare time. Right now we are fortunate to have our health and great health insurance, with that you can pretty much do anything you want.
I had a similar thread where I posted about the time and money we invest only to get rewarded with crap for pay. I was lucky enough to end up where I am and passed on almost two dozen other interviews to come here (including Colgan
). Although that being said had I gone to Colgan when I was hired here (Mid-2005) I'd probably be a pretty senior CA there or at a mainline carrier.It sucks you got stuck as a junior FO at arguably one of the worst companies as far as QOL and pay goes right now. It sucks for me that I upgraded, pulled up stakes and relocated and bought a house only to get downgraded and my wife unable to find employment in one of the worst job markets in recent history. It sucks for the junior CA's who were finally getting ahead on student loan debt to get kicked back to reserve. It sucks for the junior mainline guys that went from $75k/yr as a CA at a regional to $25k/yr at mainline only to worry about their job every single day.
I'm not sure what happened to my attitude about things in the past few years. As a CFI I was a go-getter, did anything I could to work hard, started working on web sites as a side business, did everything I could to get ahead. It seems I've gotten lazy and have started blaming others or outside sources on my troubles. My wife is great, she is a very positive person and is happy with what we have (she grew up very poor) so she has tried to make me look at it from a better perspective. But I know what you are saying.
No one is going to make things happen for you, there are people out there right now with jobs they like that make money doing it. For instance I like older Volvos and have started looking at "flipping" them in my garage - buy a broken car for cheap $$ and bring it back to life. Either that or parting them out on ebay and shipping the parts over seas, as there is a huge demand for older Volvo parts in S. America (if you follow them, the 850 and early 70 series) right now paying 3x what I can buy them for from the dealer! The point wasn't to start doing that put look around you and while the idea may not be great (as in shipping parts to a 3rd world country...) it may lead you to something else more viable in your spare time. Right now we are fortunate to have our health and great health insurance, with that you can pretty much do anything you want.
ThatOtherDude
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Wow. What regional do you work for that doesn't bottom feed? I knew the pay scale and knew the forecast for growth. That's why I made the decision I made.
Airlines are in it for the money and to please the stockholders. They'd be stupid to pays us anymore when they don't have to. The law is on their side. We can't strike and when it comes to negotiations we're always in the hands of the arbitrators. No matter what airline you work for in the United States of America, you are not getting a fair deal. Not because people aren't willing to say "screw this, let's strike" but because the law says we can't.
And it's not just the regionals. The majors are in the same boat, they just complain less because they make more. We need the law amended. We need to be able to walk out and refuse to fly. I wrote my Congressman and try to educate everyone I can. That's all I can do short of getting a bullhorn and rallying in the terminal by myself.
It's real easy to flame the regional guys but we're all in this together. Just because you may work for an airline that pays you a few dollars more, what's there to stop them from giving you a pay cut. I.E. Delta, 2005 & US Air
Wow. What regional do you work for that doesn't bottom feed? I knew the pay scale and knew the forecast for growth. That's why I made the decision I made.
Airlines are in it for the money and to please the stockholders. They'd be stupid to pays us anymore when they don't have to. The law is on their side. We can't strike and when it comes to negotiations we're always in the hands of the arbitrators. No matter what airline you work for in the United States of America, you are not getting a fair deal. Not because people aren't willing to say "screw this, let's strike" but because the law says we can't.
And it's not just the regionals. The majors are in the same boat, they just complain less because they make more. We need the law amended. We need to be able to walk out and refuse to fly. I wrote my Congressman and try to educate everyone I can. That's all I can do short of getting a bullhorn and rallying in the terminal by myself.
It's real easy to flame the regional guys but we're all in this together. Just because you may work for an airline that pays you a few dollars more, what's there to stop them from giving you a pay cut. I.E. Delta, 2005 & US Air
ThatOtherDude
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
You got other flying jobs for the thousands of pilots at the airlines?
You got other flying jobs for the thousands of pilots at the airlines?
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
User Profile - About Me - Industry Sector - Freight
In other words, he's probably saying he researched the regionals and passed on them for the reasons you complain about.
What he's saying is the guy you quoted flies freight.
User Profile - About Me - Industry Sector - Freight
In other words, he's probably saying he researched the regionals and passed on them for the reasons you complain about.
ThatOtherDude
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Must be nice to have the option to pass on a flying job and then criticize others that do it and want it to be better.
Must be nice to have the option to pass on a flying job and then criticize others that do it and want it to be better.
ThatOtherDude
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Well, the point of the post was really to open up discussion on the Railway Labor Act and wether you agree on it and find it fair or not. We're the only country with it and one of the worse if the not the worse when it comes to pay and work rules at the airlines. I'm definitely not an expert on the subject but would like to hear some thoughts on it from people who might know more about it than I. Also, if anyone has any bright ideas on what to do to improve the industry for the future generations I'd like to read them. If I ever have a son or daughter and they want to be pilots, I want to support them and know that know that they'll have it better than I did.
Well, the point of the post was really to open up discussion on the Railway Labor Act and wether you agree on it and find it fair or not. We're the only country with it and one of the worse if the not the worse when it comes to pay and work rules at the airlines. I'm definitely not an expert on the subject but would like to hear some thoughts on it from people who might know more about it than I. Also, if anyone has any bright ideas on what to do to improve the industry for the future generations I'd like to read them. If I ever have a son or daughter and they want to be pilots, I want to support them and know that know that they'll have it better than I did.
JA Yawd Bwoy
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
He did not criticize you, he just said that if YOU are not comfortable with your job, then YOU can look at it from his view which is very valid being that you have freight, corporate, and even the military. There have been many and will continue to be pilots who are at the majors and have never even interviewed at a regional. Just .02 from a Lil 17 year old...
He did not criticize you, he just said that if YOU are not comfortable with your job, then YOU can look at it from his view which is very valid being that you have freight, corporate, and even the military. There have been many and will continue to be pilots who are at the majors and have never even interviewed at a regional. Just .02 from a Lil 17 year old...
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Legally, you may not be able to strike, but nothing prevents a group of pilots from saying, "screw this", and walking off the job. It isn't illegal to quit a job. It also isn't illegal to call in sick. I'm sure there are still ways to send the message, without doing anything, "illegal". I find that there aren't many who are willing to do what is needed, to, "take it back". I see more complaining on message boards, than hearing about people proactively trying to "take it back".
I've also noticed that anytimg there is an important vote on something, at an airline, there seems to be low turn out, among the pilots. I also notice that pilots are willing to vote "yes", to pay cuts, rather than no. "The company will go under, if we don't". That is what management wants you to believe. I think pilots are playing a much larger role, is this "race to the bottom", than they think.
Legally, you may not be able to strike, but nothing prevents a group of pilots from saying, "screw this", and walking off the job. It isn't illegal to quit a job. It also isn't illegal to call in sick. I'm sure there are still ways to send the message, without doing anything, "illegal". I find that there aren't many who are willing to do what is needed, to, "take it back". I see more complaining on message boards, than hearing about people proactively trying to "take it back".
I've also noticed that anytimg there is an important vote on something, at an airline, there seems to be low turn out, among the pilots. I also notice that pilots are willing to vote "yes", to pay cuts, rather than no. "The company will go under, if we don't". That is what management wants you to believe. I think pilots are playing a much larger role, is this "race to the bottom", than they think.
ThatOtherDude
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
At Colgan they make you talk to the Chief Pilot every time you call out sick and make you bring in a doctor's note, even if it's your first time calling out. It's worse than school. I appreciate your ideas but walking off the job won't do us any good unless we all do it together and if I go out trying to convince the other 500 pilots at my company to join me then I'm sure I'll be the only one to go when the company finds out.
So seriously...what can we do to make things better? I know there's a lot of guys here that are willing but just don't know what to do and don't have the ability or opportunity to Unite. So what can we reasonably do?
At Colgan they make you talk to the Chief Pilot every time you call out sick and make you bring in a doctor's note, even if it's your first time calling out. It's worse than school. I appreciate your ideas but walking off the job won't do us any good unless we all do it together and if I go out trying to convince the other 500 pilots at my company to join me then I'm sure I'll be the only one to go when the company finds out.
So seriously...what can we do to make things better? I know there's a lot of guys here that are willing but just don't know what to do and don't have the ability or opportunity to Unite. So what can we reasonably do?