Is a layover "off time"?

[Trip7]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

I guess it would depend on your definition of "corporate sales." I have trouble seeing how someone could devote enough time to a serious corporate sales job AND graduate college in 4 years. If you stretch the definition, I guess my wife has 6 years of corporate sales experience. She works for a major corporation and sells things.

Back to the topic at hand....

IMO, time "off" on a layover is no different than a 3-4 hour sit between flights at the airport. You can read a book or do what you want, but you can't go home or leave work.

On a 3-4 hr sit you're still on duty, and pretty much confined to the airport. Layovers are no different than going home after a daytrip


Lets just say I can relate to the movie Office Space real well. Had my cubicle, my computer, my headset, and multiple managers(when I wasn't one). The whole 9-5 thing, been there, done that and got the T Shirt.



I know one thing, the further up you move the corporate ladder, the more work(hours) you have to put in. As a manager I had to be there M-F, most and most likely on Sat. The VP of Marketing was in his office from 8am til 9pm most days. CEO? They make junior lineholders look like they're always home.



Aviation is the reverse, the further up you move, better schedules, more days off, holidays off, and best of all, more pay. The only serious flaw I see with the aviation industry is caused by our greatest protection, the seniority system. The fact that if your company goes under you're faced with starting back at a regional for 20-25 grand is a grim reality.

 

[Alchemy]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Layovers are no different than going home after a daytrip

No offense, but I couldn't disagree with this statement more. That could only be true if you have no life, no family, and no hobbies at home.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

My brother in law just graduated from FIT he got his masters paid for by the college and his first job is $80k for 40 hours a week anything above that pays $50/hr he's currently making around $130k and he's 23.

I did something wrong.

And if anyone thinks time in the hotel is off time they're crazy.

 

[Nick]

Layovers are no different than going home after a daytrip

 

[Gonzo]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Layovers are no different than going home after a daytrip.

Either your home life sucks or ASA has some of the best layover hotels.:banghead:

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

No layover hotel beats home, and we had some really decent overnight hotels.

Long Providence?

Long Atlanta?

Long Dallas?

Long Mikwaukee?

Long DCA/IAD?

Long, crap like everywhere.

 

[Trip7]

Its not like you have the next 3 days off after a daytrip to do whatever you want. What are you going to do? Go out and party with your friends? You most likely go drive home(however long that may be)eat, fall asleep, wake up early as heck, and drive back to the airport. Me I'm lazy. I'll rather have someone drive me around. I'd rather get paid to stay away from home. I would take a 4 day over daytrips anyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. One of the perks of this job is you don't have to drive to work everyday. Daytrips kill that.


And if layovers are not time off and you're not working(off duty)what is it then? Downtime? An extended break?



And its true no layover beats home but if I'm coming home I want to be staying there for a while and not have a 7:00am show stuck in my head when I'm walking in the door at 9:30...

 

[Nick]

And if layovers are not time off and you're not working(off duty)what is it then? Downtime? An extended break?

They are whatever you want them to be. Whatever you'd consider someone on a business trip when they're not attending a meeting or some business function. They're certainly not home, and they're not off from work. Whatever 'that' is, is what a layover is.

The consensus is: the company has you there so you're at work.

Me I'm lazy. I'll rather have someone drive me around.

Going from the airport curb to the hotel lobby is anything but a chauffeur though. Half the time they are late while you wait on the curb listening to one half of your crew's phone conversation. Driving to local malls or restaurants from the hotel is driving you around, yes, but really quite limited to whatever happens to be nearby.

I'd rather get paid to stay away from home.

At $1.60 an hour a 12 hour layover pays $19.

While I can agree with some of your reasons to not want to do daytrips, this is not one of them. $19 is less than an hour's pay even on first year rate at a commuter airline. And for captain pay at the same company it is what, twenty minutes pay?

Its not like you have the next 3 days off after a daytrip to do whatever you want. What are you going to do? Go out and party with your friends? You most likely go drive home(however long that may be)eat, fall asleep, wake up early as heck, and drive back to the airport.

I would take a 4 day over daytrips anyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. One of the perks of this job is you don't have to drive to work everyday. Daytrips kill that.

I'm young and single too and when I lived in base I did not want to do daytrips either due to a 1 hour 15 minute drive. They'd have to be 7-8 hours credit for me to consider them and even then I wouldn't do it all the time because I'd get tired of 3 hours in the car each day.

The reason that many would disagree with you though, is that they are simply in a different position. They aren't single or they don't have a long drive to the airport. Plus, they might be able to get very productive, easy daytrips.

A guy I know of based at MSP on the 757 held off on upgrading for quite a while because he has a 20 minute drive to the airport and has three little girls at home and west coast turns credit 7-8 hours and it's a 9-5 job except it is a three day workweek. I can't see how anyone in that position would want to do a three-day trip instead. I'm sure his three little girls appreciate him coming home for dinner and seeing them for a few hours.

So it's just a different perspective. Which is good, because if everyone wanted to bid the same stuff it'd be a nightmare for the junior folks!

 

[derg]

I've been in some five star hotels, suites, even five (should be six) star where the concierge (who addresses you by name) will meet you at the cab, open the door, have a bell cap grab your bags which magically show up in your hotel room with a fresh pot of coffee and hot water for tea and I'd rather be upstairs in my own bed!

Don't eff this up, but the Pan Pacific Hotel in Vancouver, BC is probably the nicest hotel in N. America, spectacular views and gives a great crew discount if you call them directly and it's not cruise season. One of you guys screws this up by hoarding the crap from the room, stealing towels and other pilot crap, I'll bust your kneecaps.

 

[mwflyer]

Not to flame: I don’t know what the big secret the airlines have been withholding from most of you when you applied for the job.

Low pay? Well all the pay rates, per diem, and monthly mins are published online. Travel on overnights away from home?

Weather delays? Mx Cancellations? Before learning to fly have you ever flown as a passenger?

My first respectable career job right out of college (1995) in IT paid $2,150 per month salary. You might say that’s better than today’s all regionals first year FO pay. Okay let’s break this down. The company had a minimum 45 hour work week. $2,150 / 4.25 weeks in a month/ 45 hours per week = $11.24 per hour. Adjusted for 4% inflation year over year for 13 years this amounts to $18.72 per hour in 2008 dollars. Better than first year FO pay? Keep in mind that is only for minimum 45 hour work week and does not include extra work due to unexpected development problems and business demands to meet certain deadlines.

Why did I take the job? I knew that in a few years by working hard improving my skills and networking it would open doors to better opportunities in my career. After several years I was able to leave this company during a recession for another with better pay and a more relaxed working environment.

Why did I leave this career for flying? Well, I got tired of working an average of 240 hours a month(working, not watching HBO, sleeping, or B.S.ing at airport Chili’s) and got tired of the mundane 8am - ?? M-F and Sa, maybe Su work week. More pay equals more responsibility equals more time at work in the business world.

The point is I think we should carefully weigh privileges and benefits of this profession before throwing stones at it and comparing it with other professions. Also career success does not come overnight. It is a carefully laid out long-term out and strategy and the ability to change when the need arises.

If you are not happy with pay or working conditions of your current flying gig then either look or work towards getting a different flying gig or a new profession that suits your needs. Life is too short to be complaining about your job every day for the next 30-40 years.

Should flight crews be paid more? Yes. Will they? That remains to be seen.

excellent post cactus. everybody knows the pay before you take the job, and the whole being home thing is laughable. who didnt know that airline pilots are away from home alot? its like guys who lay asphalt in the summer complaining about the heat.

 

[derg]

Here, let me break it down for you both.

People want information on what it's like. So we're telling it from our perspectives.

Now if you have a perspective based on first hand experience, don't "yeah that", tell us what you think. However if you haven't at least done the proverbial "walk a mile in the moccasins" of living a life on the road, it's probably better to avoid attempting to compare the life of a road warrior with that of some toothless dude laying asphalt.

 

[Alchemy]

excellent post cactus. everybody knows the pay before you take the job, and the whole being home thing is laughable. who didnt know that airline pilots are away from home alot? its like guys who lay asphalt in the summer complaining about the heat.

I don't think we're complaining about being away from home, we're just saying it's not "off time". Are you an airline pilot, and if so, for how many years have you been one?

 

[Trip7]

They are whatever you want them to be. Whatever you'd consider someone on a business trip when they're not attending a meeting or some business function. They're certainly not home, and they're not off from work. Whatever 'that' is, is what a layover is.

The consensus is: the company has you there so you're at work.

I agree, you're not working, but you're not at home. But you are off from work, otherwise you would still be dutied in. I guess the best term for this would be you are on REST.

At $1.60 an hour a 12 hour layover pays $19.

While I can agree with some of your reasons to not want to do daytrips, this is not one of them. $19 is less than an hour's pay even on first year rate at a commuter airline. And for captain pay at the same company it is what, twenty minutes pay?

Here's my point on this, on the first check of the month we get here that includes the previous months per diem, I won't see $19, I'll see close to $500. That $19 a night adds up over a month. And that's for doing nothing. I'm not one to pass up free untaxed money


But of course all of this down will change down the road when wife and kids alter the lifestyle. But for right now from a pure financial perspective its not worth it to me to give up $400+ a month just for the pride of sleeping in my own bed everyday of the month. Besides, my seniority isn't high enough to let me do it anyways


What I value is Days off. I like to string those together and blast off somewhere exotic(Guess I just don't like sleeping in my own bed). That's a big perk to me in this industry, the ability to create a mini vacation for yourself every month. To me, that is truly "time off"

 

[surreal1221]

Why do we not have a hanging head in shame smiley?

 

[Qgar]

I dunno. Maybe how you view a layover depends on what stage of your life you're in. If you're newly married, have kids or have a significant other, layovers suck since you're away from that person. HOWEVER, as with everything else in life, one size does NOT fit all. For those of us who are divorced, or who are married for more years than they care to count, and/or have kids at home, a layover can be "refreshing and rejuvenating" for lack of a better term. Where else can you stay at a fairly decent (or in some cases like Doug's, a 5-star establishment) and be spoiled and pampered? :nana2: I know some FAs who relish the "down time" since they FOR ONCE have control of the remote control and don't have to listen to the whining and demands of a husband and or kids!

 

[surreal1221]

The question is if a lay over is time off. . .and it's amazingly sad to see that some even consider it to be time off.

You're still on the Company's time believe it or not. Albeit, rest, but you're on REST at the Company's direction. You're not "Off" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

We stayed at some pretty lousy hotels at USAir. The Milford (Mildew) Plaza in Manhattan, the Dayton Airport Inn (now with Eurobath!), the Travelodge in Elmira... There were one or two nicer ones. The Marriott in downtown Atlanta, the Embassy Suites at Logan... nothing fantastic though.

Today I fly predominantly day-trips. I depart at 6:30am and am usually pulling into my driveway by 6:00pm. I usually put off dinner and spend an hour or so playing with my 2 year old. Hearing what new words he learned how to say. I give him his bath and put him in his jammies. Then I sit down with him and we read a couple of stories. We cuddle for a bit and he says, "Daddy hug? Daddy kiss? Sleep now." So we hug and kiss and then he lays down and when I turn off the light he says "night night Daddy".

I don't care if i'm staying at the Taj Mahal. Nothing beats that. What many of you fail to realize is that quality of life has a dollar value. You can be paid $300,000 a year, but if your lifestyle is such that you miss the little things ... school plays, little league games, birthdays, and holidays -- what was it all worth?

It would take a whole lot to drag me back to flying 85 hrs a month.

 

[Qgar]

The question is if a lay over is time off. . .and it's amazingly sad to see that some even consider it to be time off.

You're still on the Company's time believe it or not. Albeit, rest, but you're on REST at the Company's direction. You're not "Off" by any stretch of the imagination.

Duh, of course you're not "off" as you're not free to just pick up and leave. But, we can all agree that we are free to do what we want, within reason, during that downtime. A few things that come to mind are: sightsee, enjoy good food and drink with fellow crewmembers, shop, go swimming, etc. (some things I won't mention--but we all KNOW some crewmembers who partake in THOSE activities).

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is. Did any of us who applied for a job as a "crewmember" not know that it entailed time away from home?

 

[mwflyer]

I don't think we're complaining about being away from home, we're just saying it's not "off time". Are you an airline pilot, and if so, for how many years have you been one?

no, im not an airline pilot. i agree that the debate now is about off time. however, in the original thread people were talking about being away from home. guys on here are always saying (insert random job here) is better than being an airline pilot because you are home. now im not saying being on the road all the time is easy, but you knew that before you took the job. i understand that things change in one's personal life, however, being an airline pilot is a significant investment in time, money and effort. you would think that people would ask themselves, "hey in the future when i have a wife/kids am i still going to want to be away from home all the time?"

 

[jtrain609]

I can tell you I didn't. When I was a kid, and had dreams of flying airplanes around I thought, "Whatever, the wife and kids can take a back seat to MY career!"

It's called being egocentric.

Then I met a very cute, short lady in college and we dated for a while. Eventually, after a long series of events, we got married while I was at a regional.

Life sucked being away from her, especially with all we had gone through to get where we're at in our relationship.

To be frank, being furloughed was probably the best thing that could happen. It's taken me out of the game at just the right time so that I can spend some time with my new wife.

10 years ago, I would have told you that somebody that would give up FLYING AIRPLANES ALL THE TIME for some, some....GIRL, is a complete idiot. Now that I've grown up past that phase in my life, I like spending time with my wife. I like that we can carpool to work now. I like that I can actually see her for a few hours every night instead of calling her for 20 minutes and 2-3 timezones away and say, "Hey, how was your day...ok gotta go now, we've got an oh dark thirty show time and I need to get some sleep."

Then, when I get home, I'm useless for a good day after my trips. When you're home 36-48 hours a week, that kinda kills any time you have together. I know a lot of other guys are the same way, in that you get home from a trip and you're just exhausted. 24 hours later you're back to your normal self and guess what? You've gotta go back to work.

It's not good, it's not bad; it just is. The fact that you want to ascribe some value laden judgment to this tells me that you've never done it.