Is a layover "off time"?

[kellwolf]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

I would rather spend that time at home with the wife and soon to be kids.. just more important to me.

Bingo. It comes down to perception. Those of us with a family think of overnights differently than the single people out there. Single guys and gals might see an overnight as an opportunity to get out and explore. Family types see that, too, but we're also thinking "Man, I wish my wife/husband was here. They'd like this, too."

Those of you that see an overnight as "off" time, how would you see 5 days in a hotel in MSP sitting reserve out of domicile? Off time or time spent away from home? I know how I view it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Bingo. It comes down to perception. Those of us with a family think of overnights differently than the single people out there. Single guys and gals might see an overnight as an opportunity to get out and explore. Family types see that, too, but we're also thinking "Man, I wish my wife/husband was here. They'd like this, too."

Those of you that see an overnight as "off" time, how would you see 5 days in a hotel in MSP sitting reserve out of domicile? Off time or time spent away from home? I know how I view it.

Well..... it is a nice hotel. The downstairs rooms have hot tubs right next to the bed. It's pretty frakin sweet.

 

[v1valarob]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Bingo. It comes down to perception. Those of us with a family think of overnights differently than the single people out there. Single guys and gals might see an overnight as an opportunity to get out and explore. Family types see that, too, but we're also thinking "Man, I wish my wife/husband was here. They'd like this, too."

Those of you that see an overnight as "off" time, how would you see 5 days in a hotel in MSP sitting reserve out of domicile? Off time or time spent away from home? I know how I view it.

Im single and 23 and consider over nights as time on.

My friends work a regular 9-5 and they can do things like join a softball team, go out after work for drinks, sleep with their wife, hang out with their girlfriends, play with their kids.

I cant do any of that because Im working.

 

[Trip7]

Re: Definition of time off and the real value of per diem

Alright, let me get this straight. If your friend called you and said "hey are you working tonight? We're all gonna go out for dinner, why don't you join us?"

Would you tell him or her: "Well, I'm not working tonight, but right now I'm on the curb in Allentown going through my little red book to find our block time so if the van doesn't get here in another few minutes we're gonna take a taxi because we've been waiting out here in the cold for a while. I probably won't be able to join you since I'm about a thousand miles away from home, but I am off tonight so maybe I'll call you later on the walk back from Denny's. Not too late though; we're out of here at 5 tomorrow morning."

I know it is 'time off' from being on duty but to consider it 'off from work' is quite peculiar as you are nowhere near where you'd be if you were on a 'day off.'

So when I was having dinner with my cousin in Akron you're telling me I was working? To reference your scenario, I actually don't get called, I do the calling. Something like "hey what's up Im in XYZ city for the night hadn't seen ya in a while lets grab dinner!" To me an overnight is paid time off. It might be different later on in my life, but right now I'd rather get paid on my time off than not paid.

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The only way per diem can pay for a chunk of anyone's bills is if they have a very minimal amount of bills to pay.

No mortgage, no kids, maybe no car payment, and so on.

I think if you polled pilots most would say they would not rather get paid $1.60 an hour to sleep in a hotel instead of sleeping at home. That per diem for sleeping there all night adds up to less than thirty minutes of hourly pay. Totally not worth it.

300hr T.A.F.B adds up to $480 tax free. Even with a house full of kids that money is helpful.

And just to be clear, I consider a layover "time off" and not a "day off" e.g I would much rather do 4 days with layovers than daytrips.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Well..... it is a nice hotel. The downstairs rooms have hot tubs right next to the bed. It's pretty frakin sweet.

Yeah, don't trust the hot tubs. Think about what goes on in there and how often that thing probably gets REALLY cleaned.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Yeah, don't trust the hot tubs. Think about what goes on in there and how often that thing probably gets REALLY cleaned.

Dang it. Ew.:buck:

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Right now, I have so much crap to fix at home with 1 or2 kids on the way, i really would almost rather take a month off.

To be fair, my wife makes most of the money in our house... so 480 isn't my concern. Anyways, if i can be home an additional 7 days a month, i would save nearly 600 in childcare.

If i am away from home because of work, i am DEF. working. anything i guy i will write off as a work expense, so... i gotta be.

If i am phone liable, then they better be paying me something

 

[Nick]

So when I was having dinner with my cousin in Akron you're telling me I was working? To reference your scenario, I actually don't get called, I do the calling. Something like "hey what's up Im in XYZ city for the night hadn't seen ya in a while lets grab dinner!" To me an overnight is paid time off. It might be different later on in my life, but right now I'd rather get paid on my time off than not paid.

I completely agree that it can be a nice break from work to have a layover someplace that you know friends or family, or you're there long enough to maybe rent a car or get on a train and go someplace interesting that's near the layover city.

But if, for instance, your airline closed down the base you currently fly out of and you started doing flying out of another base, and none of those layovers were places where you knew anybody, would it still really be time off?

I mean we both agree that it is indeed time off from being on duty. But I doubt anyone would look at their schedule and see a bunch of 20 hour layovers in "the villes and burgs" (courtesy of Staplegun) and think "wow look at all this time off in December!

And if that is the measure of whether or not a layover is time off then most layovers are not time off anyway. No matter how many people someone knows, they aren't going to meet friends and family on 12-15 layovers per month -- but they are going to be away from home.

300hr T.A.F.B adds up to $480 tax free. Even with a house full of kids that money is helpful.

There is no doubt that it adds up over a month or a year. But if you take out the amount you spent on food and tips during all of the trips, the result is smaller (no matter how much food one brings in some container they are still going to spend some per diem).

And $480 doesn't pay for much.

When compared to a real, appropriate airline pilot paycheck (not one of a contract lift provider FO, unfortunately[and that includes me too]), per diem is not such a sizeable chunk. It is to pay for food, tips, and incidentals. And other than UPS's per diem scheme for specific parts of the world, I don't even think it covers food and drink on overseas layovers at many companies.

 

[wzgrza]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Sleeping and watching HBO in the hotel room doesn’t constitute working.

The same goes with being at cruise altitude for 80% of the leg with the AP on and B.S.ing with the other guy/gal next to you or doing one of the dozen other things that the Flight Operations Manual prohibits.

Many times I had to travel to off-site locations when I was in the IT field. Guess what? The paycheck was the same. Some weeks I had to work 70hrs a week to get the job done, some weeks I didn’t. The fact it most IT jobs are salary so your paycheck is the same no matter how much the company wants to get out of you.

You can go back and fourth like this all you like. But time away from home, because of your job to most pilots is considered being at "work" that is our job, and that is how we percieve it. Maybe you are suggesting then that we shouldnt be getting paid for the "80% of the leg with the AP and B.S.ing with the other guy/gal next to us" ?

How about that 14 hour duty day, where your out-and-back gets turned into an overnight, because of weather or mechanical problems all day long and you blocked 3 hours of flying or "work" on a 14 hour "work" day.

A pilot earns the pay he recieves throughout his entire career, on one day when something goes wrong, and his/her actions are responsible for a safe landing, and for the lives of XXX people on board.

Sorry but the responsibility that our job bears alone, without all the other BS we deal with, is reason enough for good paycheck and to reward us for our time.

 

[Nick]

Yeah, don't trust the hot tubs. Think about what goes on in there and how often that thing probably gets REALLY cleaned.

Hehe. I'd post the youtube video of the 'girl sharts in hot tub' but it is probably better suited for the lav.

I have always wondered what percentage of the water in a hot tub is human sweat.

One percent? Five percent? Hmm.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Hehe. I'd post the youtube video of the 'girl sharts in hot tub' but it is probably better suited for the lav.

I have always wondered what percentage of the water in a hot tub is human sweat.

One percent? Five percent? Hmm.

The "hot tubs" in the rooms don't come "pre-filled" with water. I will agree that the tub probably needs to be scrubbed but the water going in is fresh.

 

[Velocipede]

Sleeping and watching HBO in the hotel room doesn’t constitute working.

Actually, if you have TAFB provisions in your contract it does.

The same goes with being at cruise altitude for 80% of the leg with the AP on and B.S.ing with the other guy/gal next to you or doing one of the dozen other things that the Flight Operations Manual prohibits..

Again, it does. The aircraft requires constant monitoring as do the radios. On top of that, I think most airlines pay us for the abnormal times. We're sort of like the world's cheapest insurance policy.

Yes. Office workers are known for being 100% productive the whole time they are at work. Nobody ever takes a long lunch or coffee breaks, smoke breaks, stands around the water cooler B.Sing, or leaves early..

Excellent point, Toonces.

Bingo. It comes down to perception. Those of us with a family think of overnights differently than the single people out there. Single guys and gals might see an overnight as an opportunity to get out and explore. Family types see that, too, but we're also thinking "Man, I wish my wife/husband was here. They'd like this, too."

Or being just plain lonesome stuck in a hotel room on Thanksgiving or Xmas night.

Those of you that see an overnight as "off" time, how would you see 5 days in a hotel in MSP sitting reserve out of domicile? Off time or time spent away from home? I know how I view it.

An ideal picture of the "reserve" blues. As you pointed out, time off is time completely free from Company duty and off the clock.

I cant do any of that because Im working.

Amen. And you aren't there when the kid has a car accident or the washing machine craps out either. In other words, the times the family needs you the most.

 

[Nick]

The "hot tubs" in the rooms don't come "pre-filled" with water. I will agree that the tub probably needs to be scrubbed but the water going in is fresh.

Well yeah. I mean the hot tub by the pool.

 

[derg]

Amen. And you aren't there when the kid has a car accident or the washing machine craps out either. In other words, the times the family needs you the most.

Crap ALWAYS breaks the second you pushback for the first leg of the trip.

 

[Trip7]

I completely agree that it can be a nice break from work to have a layover someplace that you know friends or family, or you're there long enough to maybe rent a car or get on a train and go someplace interesting that's near the layover city.

But if, for instance, your airline closed down the base you currently fly out of and you started doing flying out of another base, and none of those layovers were places where you knew anybody, would it still really be time off?

Yes, because I am not physically in the airplane working. It is not a day off but its certainly time off, away from home, which you are being compensated for because you are away from home. If someones calls me and Im in the cockpit I'm going to say im at work. If I at the hotel watching T.V. and someone calls me I don't say i'm at work. If you have a 4 day of only daytrips when you go home after day 1,2 or 3 and someone calls you up are you going to say you're at work?

I mean we both agree that it is indeed time off from being on duty. But I doubt anyone would look at their schedule and see a bunch of 20 hour layovers in "the villes and burgs" (courtesy of Staplegun) and think "wow look at all this time off in December!

True, they'll probably say "Sweet, look at all these long layovers if you're someone like me!

And if that is the measure of whether or not a layover is time off then most layovers are not time off anyway. No matter how many people someone knows, they aren't going to meet friends and family on 12-15 layovers per month -- but they are going to be away from home.

Yeah, but I'm away from home when I get home anyway. Travel bennies!

There is no doubt that it adds up over a month or a year. But if you take out the amount you spent on food and tips during all of the trips, the result is smaller (no matter how much food one brings in some container they are still going to spend some per diem).

The result is smaller, but not significantly smaller

And $480 doesn't pay for much.

That pays my share of the rent. Just for spending time in a city besides Atlanta Compared to reserve where I dip into my guarantee to pay for everything.

When compared to a real, appropriate airline pilot paycheck (not one of a contract lift provider FO, unfortunately[and that includes me too]), per diem is not such a sizeable chunk. It is to pay for food, tips, and incidentals. And other than UPS's per diem scheme for specific parts of the world, I don't even think it covers food and drink on overseas layovers at many companies.

Man its a WHOLE new ballgame when you get to the Majors. Even when you make Captain over here its a whole new ballgame. But for most regional FOs per diem adds a pretty significant boost to the paycheck.

 

[surreal1221]

Layovers are not time off.

The End.

 

[AMH]

Crap ALWAYS breaks the second you pushback for the first leg of the trip.

Especially the last leg of a 4-day.

 

[B767Driver]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

If you're doing your job professionally, there really aren't large amounts of time where you're sitting there contemplating your navel or showing pictures of your 20 year old girlfriend's implants (Come on dude, you're 58, it's a little creepy ok?).

Funny, sad and true.

 

[B767Driver]

Man, I live for the layovers anymore!

 

[derg]

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Funny, sad and true.

I'm going to write a book one day. I might have to write it under a pseudonym for a variety of good reasons, but man I'm going to do it.