Is a layover "off time"?

Nick

Well-Known Member
Because I have been in the accounting field for 10 years and would like to work in the IT field, how does one start a new career when the pay is not enough to even support a family at a poverty level?
Not that I am doubting it but I would like to know: what kind of low pay is he talking about? Is it $1200 a month after taxes type of low?
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Not that I am doubting it but I would like to know: what kind of low pay is he talking about? Is it $1200 a month after taxes type of low?
He never said the pay but I gathered from several threads you must have some kind of entry level experience to get a good paying IT job, which is around regional captain pay.
 

ChrisH

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Actually, it depends. I am majoring in IT (computer science), and have seen many jobs with starting pay where RJ captain pay is, with salaries that range well into $150K. My aunt works in IT, and makes six figures. If you have a degree in IT (computer information systems, computer science, etc) the pay is usually RJ captain range, to start, and goes up from there.

The type of IT jobs it sounds this particular person is talking about, is one in which he'd be running around an office trouble-shooting, fixing printers, etc. You don't need a degree for that, but those jobs still typically pay $30K+, which is low, compared to other IT jobs. As with any job, having the degree, vs. just trying to learn it yourself, makes a world of difference in the type of jobs you can get, within that field, and the pay.

Entry-level IT jobs for the state I live in, are near $3K/month, and quickly go up. State jobs are usually lower paying than jobs in the private sector.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Unfortunately, when it comes to IT. . .an A+, MCSE, and CCNA certs are pretty worthless in regards to career earnings when compared to an individual who holds all those certifications and some, plus a degree in an IT related field.

Much like the career earning potential of a non-degree having regional pilot and a degree holding Legacy FO's career earning potential.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Unfortunately, when it comes to IT. . .an A+, MCSE, and CCNA certs are pretty worthless in regards to career earnings when compared to an individual who holds all those certifications and some, plus a degree in an IT related field.

Much like the career earning potential of a non-degree having regional pilot and a degree holding Legacy FO's career earning potential.
It's actually more like flying.

Your earnings in the IT field stem from WHAT you know and what you've DONE with WHO you know. Certs are fine at the entry levels, but as you progress it's built on networking, creativity and knowing the right people at the right time.
 

ChrisH

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

You are right. First, having the degree is big. Plenty of companies require a degree in the IT field, to work for them. It isn't as simple as getting some certs., learning on your own, and applying for a job. The degree, plus the certs., opens up many more opportunities, and income potential. IT isn't simply running around fixing someone's broken printer, or keyboard.

There are also many other jobs that require/prefer IT degrees, that don't require any kind of certs. Business analysts, database analysts, network engineers, etc., make very good money. My aunt is a database analyst and makes six figures. Those jobs start, in many cases, in the $60-$70K+ range, and go up. I was talking to the IT guy at the airport I work at. He is just out of school, and makes about $60K. Those jobs, one cannot get, by just teaching themselves, and getting a few certs. They require the degree.

Anyways .. I'm not sure why I am going off about IT. I guess I've just begun to question whether or not the whole flying thing is really what I want to do, or whether there are better opportunities out there, that will allow me to enjoy flying, for fun. Coming upon threads like this, really make me question that. I've talked to quite a few people, and have been told that if it is something I want to do, than do it. I guess I am questioning whether I really, WANT to do it. Even as a young, 20-something, I don't like the idea of being away from home all of the time, missing holidays, and family events, etc., not to mention the endless job instability to worry about.
 

ChrisH

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I will use my good friend as an example yet again. He has been with the same company for 10 years now. he has tried to leave on several occasions. He had headhunters call him out of the blue and offer him jobs. Several years ago he was making around 70k and a headhunter called and set him up with a job programming PDA's for 90k. When he tried to quit his current job they offered to match what the other guys were offering. that has happened to him more than once.
I know people who have had the same happen to them. You are actually valued for what you offer to the company. The airlines don't seem to look at it the same way. You are a number, who can be replaced, and nothing more. It doesn't matter if you have been a captain for 10+ years with your company, if you get put to the street, you go to the back of the line. In IT, and almost any other non-airline related field, you carry your experience over, and just may, have people fighting over you, as in the case of your friend.

My brother was actually in a similiar position. He had a rival company offer him 3 times his then salary, to go work for them. It would have required moving to another city, which he didn't want to do, so he turned it down. He was then made the same offer, some time later, by another rival company, in town, and accepted the offer. He recently purchased a $400K home, and it is very obvious he is doing well. Things like that do not happen in the airline industry - at least, not at the pilot level.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Re: Outsourcing and your career

It's actually more like flying.

Your earnings in the IT field stem from WHAT you know and what you've DONE with WHO you know. Certs are fine at the entry levels, but as you progress it's built on networking, creativity and knowing the right people at the right time.
Depends on where you work. My brother got an IT job, and they sent him to HQ in Baltimore for training. He knew more than the people training him, but he didn't have a degree. So, they started him out at pretty much regional FO pay....with very little upward mobility. His boss told him don't even think about leaving in less than 2 years if he wants a good recommendation for his next job.

End result, he, his girlfriend and their 4 month old are still living with my parents.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

40 hrs X 4 = 160 hrs a month.

70 < 160hrs.

I'd work 160 hrs a month for a good paying IT job. Not that I have much of an interest in IT work now though. . .just throwing it out there.

Heck, I'm sure many of us wouldn't object to being paid our hourly rate for the TAFB instead (at least for those who hold a line and consistently have >300hrs TAFB) of some measly per diem and an hourly rate that only counts when the door is closed.
 

jtrain609

Uniting the black vote.
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Those good paying IT jobs, you only have to work 70hrs a month? Right?
I didn't work 70 hours a month. I was PAID for 70 hours a month. I was away from home what? 300+ hours a month? I was AT WORK while not being paid for being AT WORK.

I dunno about you, but I didn't exactly consider time on an overnight as time off. I considered it as time away from my wife, my ski's, my mountain bike and everything else that makes my life that does not involve flying airplanes around.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I didn't work 70 hours a month. I was PAID for 70 hours a month. I was away from home what? 300+ hours a month? I was AT WORK while not being paid for being AT WORK.

I dunno about you, but I didn't exactly consider time on an overnight as time off. I considered it as time away from my wife, my ski's, my mountain bike and everything else that makes my life that does not involve flying airplanes around.
Dang Jtrain. It's like your reading my frickin mind or something.
 

jtrain609

Uniting the black vote.
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Yeah man I'm just an angry 20 something who got furloughed from the "job of his dreams flying jets" and had reality give me the biggest weggie of my life. It ain't that I'm really that bitter about it, but there are some harsh realities to ANY career path. The question is, what kind of realities can you deal with, and what ones can't you?
 

Cactus_Cutter

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I didn't work 70 hours a month. I was PAID for 70 hours a month. I was away from home what? 300+ hours a month? I was AT WORK while not being paid for being AT WORK.

I dunno about you, but I didn't exactly consider time on an overnight as time off. I considered it as time away from my wife, my ski's, my mountain bike and everything else that makes my life that does not involve flying airplanes around.
Sleeping and watching HBO in the hotel room doesn’t constitute working.

The same goes with being at cruise altitude for 80% of the leg with the AP on and B.S.ing with the other guy/gal next to you or doing one of the dozen other things that the Flight Operations Manual prohibits.

Many times I had to travel to off-site locations when I was in the IT field. Guess what? The paycheck was the same. Some weeks I had to work 70hrs a week to get the job done, some weeks I didn’t. The fact it most IT jobs are salary so your paycheck is the same no matter how much the company wants to get out of you.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

40 hrs X 4 = 160 hrs a month.

70 < 160hrs.

I'd work 160 hrs a month for a good paying IT job. Not that I have much of an interest in IT work now though. . .just throwing it out there.

Heck, I'm sure many of us wouldn't object to being paid our hourly rate for the TAFB instead (at least for those who hold a line and consistently have >300hrs TAFB) of some measly per diem and an hourly rate that only counts when the door is closed.
If you're employed at a "well paying" IT job I highly doubt you are working just 40 hrs a week....
From my corporate experience, the whole 9-5, 40 hr work week is basically hourly paid jobs with no benefits, like a telemarketer, or Walmart cashier. My salaried managers were never working just 40 hrs...

I didn't work 70 hours a month. I was PAID for 70 hours a month. I was away from home what? 300+ hours a month? I was AT WORK while not being paid for being AT WORK.

I dunno about you, but I didn't exactly consider time on an overnight as time off. I considered it as time away from my wife, my ski's, my mountain bike and everything else that makes my life that does not involve flying airplanes around.
I sure as heck consider it as time off. Plus you're getting paid per diem for it. My Per Diem alone takes care of a CHUNK of my bills. I'd rather get paid for eating and sleeping in a hotel than nothing for sleeping at home. Thats why I don't like daytrips. $1.60/hr adds up after a while...
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Sleeping and watching HBO in the hotel room doesn’t constitute working.

The same goes with being at cruise altitude for 80% of the leg with the AP on and B.S.ing with the other guy/gal next to you or doing one of the dozen other things that the Flight Operations Manual prohibits.

Many times I had to travel to off-site locations when I was in the IT field. Guess what? The paycheck was the same. Some weeks I had to work 70hrs a week to get the job done, some weeks I didn’t. The fact it most IT jobs are salary so your paycheck is the same no matter how much the company wants to get out of you.
Yes. Office workers are known for being 100% productive the whole time they are at work. Nobody ever takes a long lunch or coffee breaks, smoke breaks, stands around the water cooler B.Sing, or leaves early. That never happens. As far as watching HBO in a hotel room is concerned; I'd rather watch HBO in my house with my little woman.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Yes. Office workers are known for being 100% productive the whole time they are at work. Nobody ever takes a long lunch or coffee breaks, smoke breaks, stands around the water cooler B.Sing, or leaves early. That never happens. As far as watching HBO in a hotel room is concerned; I'd rather watch HBO in my house with my little woman.
True that. I did that all the time when I was an hourly worker. But do it too often in the corporate world you'll either never advance, or get fired. The latter being the more probable outcome:) And even with all the BSing I did at work in the corporate world, I still worked WAY more than I do as an airline pilot.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
Definition of time off and the real value of per diem

I sure as heck consider it as time off. Plus you're getting paid per diem for it.
Alright, let me get this straight. If your friend called you and said "hey are you working tonight? We're all gonna go out for dinner, why don't you join us?"

Would you tell him or her: "Well, I'm not working tonight, but right now I'm on the curb in Allentown going through my little red book to find our block time so if the van doesn't get here in another few minutes we're gonna take a taxi because we've been waiting out here in the cold for a while. I probably won't be able to join you since I'm about a thousand miles away from home, but I am off tonight so maybe I'll call you later on the walk back from Denny's. Not too late though; we're out of here at 5 tomorrow morning."

I know it is 'time off' from being on duty but to consider it 'off from work' is quite peculiar as you are nowhere near where you'd be if you were on a 'day off.'


* * *​


My Per Diem alone takes care of a CHUNK of my bills. I'd rather get paid for eating and sleeping in a hotel than nothing for sleeping at home. Thats why I don't like daytrips. $1.60/hr adds up after a while...
The only way per diem can pay for a chunk of anyone's bills is if they have a very minimal amount of bills to pay.

No mortgage, no kids, maybe no car payment, and so on.

I think if you polled pilots most would say they would not rather get paid $1.60 an hour to sleep in a hotel instead of sleeping at home. That per diem for sleeping there all night adds up to less than thirty minutes of hourly pay. Totally not worth it.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I would rather spend that time at home with the wife and soon to be kids.. just more important to me.

1.40 an hour covers my meals, and thats about it. My monthly "Hotel food" budget is $150... and my normal per diem is like 220?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Is a layover offtime? Ehh, I think it's one of those gray areas. If I'm having to count backwards to determine when I can have my last sangria, hanging out with a bunch of my coworkers and wondering what time pick up is in the morning, it's not necessarily "off time". Especially when you have to be cognizant crew security and, at times, "herding cats".

On the autopilot issue, "work" goes far beyond flying the aircraft.

At least in my current job, most of the work is monitoring weather at diversionary airports, post-position plots, communications (you're lucky if you have SATCOM, otherwise you're trying to compete with a flurry of other airplanes on HF radios which would make Marconi laugh at the quality), position reporting and that gosh awful freaking Panasonic AVOD and the 70 year old grandmother that can't seem to get it initialized correctly, and communicating with controllers in some hemispheres that would be more than glad to send you direct through a mountaintop or get you on an airway that conflicts with your rapid depressurization routes.

If you're doing your job professionally, there really aren't large amounts of time where you're sitting there contemplating your navel or showing pictures of your 20 year old girlfriend's implants (Come on dude, you're 58, it's a little creepy ok?).
 
Top