Is a layover "off time"?

Re: Outsourcing and your career

Doug Taylor said:
I'm going to write a book one day. I might have to write it under a pseudonym for a variety of good reasons, but man I'm going to do it.
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You can start making the rough draft during all this downtime with the AP on, at the hotel room when you're on short rest, and when your on the crew van. After all, it's "off time" to some people. :p
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Your typical worker works more than 70hrs per month, whether it be in IT, or whatever 9-5 job, but airline pilots work a lot more than 70hrs per month, as well. That is what they are paid. Time inbetween flights, as well as time spend away from home, on layovers, is all unpaid (mostly - I wouldn't consider $1.60/hr as much pay). Whether one considers the time during a layover off time, or not, is individual, but if I am away from home, for my job, I wouldn't consider it off-time.

Also, many IT professionals are paid hourly, so if they work a 60-hr work week, on average, at $35/hr, that is over $100K. AND, it is law that any hours worked over 40 hours per week, must be paid at time and a half - at least, that is how it is in the state I work, and that may be a federal law, not state (not sure). Most people I know, who are "salaried", still receive extra pay, when they work over 40 hours, even though technically, they aren't paid per hour.

I am not trying to bash the airline pilot career, just saying, there can be positives and negatives to any career, and it is all each individuals perspective on how they feel about it. As a young, single person, I wouldn't mind traveling around, staying in hotels, etc. BUT, when I have a family, and kids, I'd give that extra $400-500 per month, from per diem, to be at home, with my family.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Doug Taylor said:
I'm going to write a book one day. I might have to write it under a pseudonym for a variety of good reasons, but man I'm going to do it.
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When it goes to film can I lead in the good parts? :)

(Everyone raves about being home every night...but that's just not me. I think my wife and I both enjoy a good ratio of home and away time from each other. )
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I was thinking of casting L'il Wayne, but I guess you'll do! ;) :sarcasm:
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

B767Driver said:
When it goes to film can I lead in the good parts? :)

(Everyone raves about being home every night...but that's just not me. I think my wife and I both enjoy a good ratio of home and away time from each other. )
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You bring up a good point. Some people need/want time away from home, and family, and in some cases, spending time away from home, can make families appreciate time together that much more, and bring them closer.

I think, in the end, all careers, have their pros and cons. I can think of plenty of things that would make a 9-5 job better, and plenty of things that would make being an airline pilot better than the 9-5. I hope I am not coming across as though I am putting down the airline pilot career. I've wanted to be an airline pilot since being a little kid, like many here. I've come to understand, over the past year, or so, however, that it isn't as rosey as some may think it to be - doesn't mean I don't still want to do it. In the end, I think any career is what you make of it. There is a certain life style that will accompany all careers, and it is important for people to determine whether that lifestyle will fit their wants/needs, etc.

One thing I will say about the airline pilot career, is that, with a little seniority, the time off can be greater than almost any other career, despite the time away from home.
 
Not to flame: I don’t know what the big secret the airlines have been withholding from most of you when you applied for the job.

Low pay? Well all the pay rates, per diem, and monthly mins are published online. Travel on overnights away from home?

Weather delays? Mx Cancellations? Before learning to fly have you ever flown as a passenger?

My first respectable career job right out of college (1995) in IT paid $2,150 per month salary. You might say that’s better than today’s all regionals first year FO pay. Okay let’s break this down. The company had a minimum 45 hour work week. $2,150 / 4.25 weeks in a month/ 45 hours per week = $11.24 per hour. Adjusted for 4% inflation year over year for 13 years this amounts to $18.72 per hour in 2008 dollars. Better than first year FO pay? Keep in mind that is only for minimum 45 hour work week and does not include extra work due to unexpected development problems and business demands to meet certain deadlines.

Why did I take the job? I knew that in a few years by working hard improving my skills and networking it would open doors to better opportunities in my career. After several years I was able to leave this company during a recession for another with better pay and a more relaxed working environment.

Why did I leave this career for flying? Well, I got tired of working an average of 240 hours a month(working, not watching HBO, sleeping, or B.S.ing at airport Chili’s) and got tired of the mundane 8am - ?? M-F and Sa, maybe Su work week. More pay equals more responsibility equals more time at work in the business world.

The point is I think we should carefully weigh privileges and benefits of this profession before throwing stones at it and comparing it with other professions. Also career success does not come overnight. It is a carefully laid out long-term out and strategy and the ability to change when the need arises.

If you are not happy with pay or working conditions of your current flying gig then either look or work towards getting a different flying gig or a new profession that suits your needs. Life is too short to be complaining about your job every day for the next 30-40 years.

Should flight crews be paid more? Yes. Will they? That remains to be seen.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

ChrisH said:
Also, many IT professionals are paid hourly, so if they work a 60-hr work week, on average, at $35/hr, that is over $100K. AND, it is law that any hours worked over 40 hours per week, must be paid at time and a half - at least, that is how it is in the state I work, and that may be a federal law, not state (not sure). Most people I know, who are "salaried", still receive extra pay, when they work over 40 hours, even though technically, they aren't paid per hour.
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Most hourly IT professionals are outside contractors. They are hired and paid hourly at a premium to produce results far better and faster than their internal counter-parts. They are hired to help out IT departments complete projects when there is a temporary internal shortage of resources.

As a result most contractors are temporary and are reassigned to other companies or find new work when projects are completed. Some that are paid well and are independent have to provide for their own benefits and costs(i.e. full cost health insurance, the other half of social security, vacation, sick days, etc)

Most internal companies would not pay their own IT on a per hourly basis unless there was a high demand/short supply for their services.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Trip7 said:
If you're employed at a "well paying" IT job I highly doubt you are working just 40 hrs a week....
From my corporate experience, the whole 9-5, 40 hr work week is basically hourly paid jobs with no benefits, like a telemarketer, or Walmart cashier. My salaried managers were never working just 40 hrs...



I sure as heck consider it as time off. Plus you're getting paid per diem for it. My Per Diem alone takes care of a CHUNK of my bills. I'd rather get paid for eating and sleeping in a hotel than nothing for sleeping at home. Thats why I don't like daytrips. $1.60/hr adds up after a while...
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Your corporate experience? Bro you've got about as much corporate experience as me. Your first job out of college was at Skymates, your second was ASA.
 
No, it's not "off time". Layovers are part of a "business trip". I usually can't drink, I can't see my friends and family, and I probably have to get up at 4:30 AM the next morning. If I cuss out a hotel employee for giving me a smoking room that smells like cigarettes I'll probably be disciplined by my company. That is not "off time".
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

Cactus_Cutter said:
The point is I think we should carefully weigh privileges and benefits of this profession before throwing stones at it and comparing it with other professions. Also career success does not come overnight. It is a carefully laid out long-term out and strategy and the ability to change when the need arises.
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Well, Well said!

jtrain609 said:
Your corporate experience? Bro you've got about as much corporate experience as me. Your first job out of college was at Skymates, your second was ASA.
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EPIC FAIL!

(BTW, I highly suggest not making ludicrous assumptions about someone unless you DEFINITELY know what you're talking about:))
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

OH NO! NOT....

EPIC FAIL!!!!!!!11!

Seriously dude you're what 23 and you have a degree in aviation? Talk with meritflyer about experience in the corporate world.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

jtrain609 said:
OH NO! NOT....

EPIC FAIL!!!!!!!11!

Seriously dude you're what 23 and you have a degree in aviation? Talk with meritflyer about experience in the corporate world.
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Have 4 years experience in corporate sales, including one as manager. Not a lot of experience but enough to know the basic in and outs of the corporate world. Started in sales when I was 19. Made decent money for a college student. Aviation degree or not it doesn't matter, you don't need a degree to get into sales. You just have to be good or you will be gone...
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

SteveC said:
I worked for ONE employer for 23 years. Just saying, if anyone has any questions about the corporate world...
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Then I'd love to hear your input on this issue, Steve, especially seeing that you've gone from the corporate world to flying for a corporate/fractional outfit.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

I guess it would depend on your definition of "corporate sales." I have trouble seeing how someone could devote enough time to a serious corporate sales job AND graduate college in 4 years. If you stretch the definition, I guess my wife has 6 years of corporate sales experience. She works for a major corporation and sells things.

Back to the topic at hand....

IMO, time "off" on a layover is no different than a 3-4 hour sit between flights at the airport. You can read a book or do what you want, but you can't go home or leave work.
 
Re: Outsourcing and your career

kellwolf said:
I guess it would depend on your definition of "corporate sales." I have trouble seeing how someone could devote enough time to a serious corporate sales job AND graduate college in 4 years. If you stretch the definition, I guess my wife has 6 years of corporate sales experience. She works for a major corporation and sells things.

Back to the topic at hand....

IMO, time "off" on a layover is no different than a 3-4 hour sit between flights at the airport. You can read a book or do what you want, but you can't go home or leave work.
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Does she have a sister? :D
 
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