Interline Hostility: A Symptom of Stupidity.
- Thread starter RightSeatGirl
- Start date
IrishSheepdog
Sitting in the median
Check your facts before you speak, sir.. I expect a written apology and flowers for your vile comments about the Hawks.
Now where is my hat...
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
You would have to give me odds to take that.
How many threads about military aviation, corporate aviation, flight instruction, or ATC ever get locked?
Not too sure SJS will make DSM V when published, but maybe "Bitter Pilot Syndrome" or Embittered Pilot Syndrome" should.
flyinguitar
Well-Known Member
But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force, are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
RSG, are you a Jedi???
Joking aside, I do agree with you about your point on anger and hostility, although I happen to agree with most of the folks arguing with you about the industry and what should be done about it.
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. -Preamble to the U.S. Constitution
Note the conspicuous absence of "every man for himself."
Elevating self-interest to the morality of the land will just give us more messes like the current financial crisis.
Communist!
Scandinavian13
New Member
I have to agree with RSG. Pissing people off by yelling at them about their career choices isn't going to get them onboard with your cause. We all want higher wages and there are several factors as to why we don't have them. Sure, stonewalling on salaries will do something to raise salaries, but it will also require airlines to cut the number of pilots, among other cost-cutting measures.
It's a complicated thing, with several facets. Sure, we could all raise it by banding together, but at the sacrifice of some. My global ethics class is now haunting my thoughts as I try to work through this.
Yeah, I know. This is hanging up above my computer to remind me of how life should be:
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Thank yuh...thank yuh very muuuchhh....I'll be here all night!
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Aye aye aye Velo...I give up. You're impossible to communicate with when you think you're right all the time. You clearly don't have your facts straight and you choose to be this bitter old pilot dude...so be it. You could actually help a lot of "the younger guys" if you didn't come across as such a pompous donkey rear end.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
C'mon now...does there have to be name calling....We can have heated debate without getting personally insulting...I already called Velo a child and should not have ( apologies Velo!)..This is an interesting topic and one the affects us all. Please try and keep it civil from this point on.
skydog
New Member
You make an excellent point. I'm not talking about elevating self-interest to the level of morality. I'm talking about the freedom to use one's talents, efforts, and opportunities to make the best way he can for himself. That doesn't I advocate lying, cheating, stealing, or otherwise immoral behavior in the process. But there is nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about taking advantage of an opportunity that works for you merely because it doesn't pay what someone else thinks it should.
There's more to a job than compensation. There is also location, working conditons, corporate culture, and other aspects that can only be quantified on an individual level. I knew a man who was the most senior pilot at the company. He lived in base. He flew day trips almost exclusvely. He was home almost every night. He never worked a weekend, or a holiday. And he was paid less than what pilots on the same aircraft at other airlines were getting paid. And if somehow that opportunity had been available to me, I'd have taken it in a heartbeat, lower pay be damned. If that offends people like Velo or PCL, that's just tough. The day they start supporting me and my family is the day they can sanction my choices.
Velocipede
New Member
Don't you have a MKE trip to fly?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Come on man... you've been doing this web forum thing long enough to know that with a comment like that you blow what ever credibility you may have built up over the course of this thread.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
The underlying issue here is that all of us are pawns on the chessboard that exists between air carrier board rooms. They use underhanded competitive tactics to enhance their own corporate security which has the added effect of maintaining a divisive attitude among pilots industry wide. You guys think that airline execs underestimate the power that a unified interline attitude of all 121 pilots would have?
Pilot groups at various airlines have been manipulated by their respective board rooms into having to choose between F-ing over other pilot groups or loosing their own job/salary security. Velo and guys like him I think put too much blame on pilot groups and not enough on the true source of the problem. I also think Velo really underestimates his own response to a situation where the choices were, screw pilot group "A" or file for unemployment. I respect your priciples Velo, but those guys were manipulated, and they did what they felt they had to do...
Pilot groups at various airlines have been manipulated by their respective board rooms into having to choose between F-ing over other pilot groups or loosing their own job/salary security. Velo and guys like him I think put too much blame on pilot groups and not enough on the true source of the problem. I also think Velo really underestimates his own response to a situation where the choices were, screw pilot group "A" or file for unemployment. I respect your priciples Velo, but those guys were manipulated, and they did what they felt they had to do...
Velocipede
New Member
Just asking a simple question. A question that illustrates the basis for the opponent's argument. Its a time honored debating tactic.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Yeah but if you piss people off then they not only won't listen with an objective ear but they will have zero respect for your position. Thus zero communication occurs making the debate pointless.
Velocipede
New Member
But that's the key to the whole argument, RSG. Why do pilots seem to think all they can do for a living is fly for an airline? We're all intelligent, educated people.
We can do all sorts of things. How many of us run businesses on the side? I can name you several pilots who are successful outside the airline. Who have invented things that made them independently wealthy.
If you box yourself into the psychology that "all I can do is fly for a living," then you are playing right into their hands. You'll do anything for that paycheck. You'll go to a non-Union carrier that pays 30% less and gives you a black uniform.
By doing so you take away the leverage that everyone else has in contract negotiations.
I can understand the fact that young guys will do anything to get that PIC time to move up the ladder. But when your regional starts killing off good paying legacy jobs, perhaps its time to put some pressure on your MEC to refuse to fly that work.
Of course, that's not as easy as walking a picket line for 30 minutes and then saying, "Hey we didn't want to take your flying...they FORCED us to. By the way are you using those MKE charts?"
We can do all sorts of things. How many of us run businesses on the side? I can name you several pilots who are successful outside the airline. Who have invented things that made them independently wealthy.
If you box yourself into the psychology that "all I can do is fly for a living," then you are playing right into their hands. You'll do anything for that paycheck. You'll go to a non-Union carrier that pays 30% less and gives you a black uniform.
By doing so you take away the leverage that everyone else has in contract negotiations.
I can understand the fact that young guys will do anything to get that PIC time to move up the ladder. But when your regional starts killing off good paying legacy jobs, perhaps its time to put some pressure on your MEC to refuse to fly that work.
Of course, that's not as easy as walking a picket line for 30 minutes and then saying, "Hey we didn't want to take your flying...they FORCED us to. By the way are you using those MKE charts?"
Velocipede
New Member
But, this debate isn't for RAH pilots. They've solidified their position. No one is going to change them. They're innocent.
This debate is for the youngsters coming up so they can recognize the scumbag companies like Gojet for what they are BEFORE they apply.
This debate is using one current example of what we are all going to be facing in the future. Where the low bidder gets the flying. And the low bidder is enabled to do so because he has pilots willing to do that flying.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
I get what your saying...And you make some good points...But taking a stand as you already pointed out is much easier said then done. But don't you think that step one in resolving these issues is going to have to involve letting go of old resentments in leiu of cohesion? Various pilot groups are not gonna take any action to protect other groups as long as old angers, and old arguments are kept alive. If we can't get past what has passed then we are on a road to nowhere.
I also think you way overestimate the feeling of security among pilots at Republic. They are struggling to stay in business just like every other airline is. We have to recognize that. We must see them as fellow pilots facing the same problem we have at our own companies and let go of anger we have towards pilot groups that made a choice to protect themselves every one else be damned!. You cannot expect different results from the same experiment Velo...None of this will foster an environment where any kind of civil dialog between pilot groups can grow. Essentially we all have to reset our attitudes and work together towards a future of industry wide prosperity and fair competition. Trying to build that kind of cohesion on top of anger and resentment has not worked and will never work. You are going to have to forgive and forget. The high road is the only road that will lead us to a better industry.
I also think you way overestimate the feeling of security among pilots at Republic. They are struggling to stay in business just like every other airline is. We have to recognize that. We must see them as fellow pilots facing the same problem we have at our own companies and let go of anger we have towards pilot groups that made a choice to protect themselves every one else be damned!. You cannot expect different results from the same experiment Velo...None of this will foster an environment where any kind of civil dialog between pilot groups can grow. Essentially we all have to reset our attitudes and work together towards a future of industry wide prosperity and fair competition. Trying to build that kind of cohesion on top of anger and resentment has not worked and will never work. You are going to have to forgive and forget. The high road is the only road that will lead us to a better industry.
